Author Topic: Tower Hamlets - 53 - Pedestrian Zone - West Tenter St - Multiple Offences  (Read 596 times)

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Roff25@yahoo.co.uk

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Re: Tower Hamlets - 53 - Pedestrian Zone - West Tenter St - Multiple Offences
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2024, 12:06:48 pm »
You'll win this appeal at tribunals easily,  reasons: 1. the left signage is facing the building and not towards oncoming traffic.
2. No no Right Turn signage to warn drivers
3. The right signage is  obscured by poles before you turn, see pic.
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John U.K.

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Re: Tower Hamlets - 53 - Pedestrian Zone - West Tenter St - Multiple Offences
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2024, 12:33:01 pm »
@sillybilly9  are you still with us?
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sillybilly9

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Re: Tower Hamlets - 53 - Pedestrian Zone - West Tenter St - Multiple Offences
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2024, 04:19:02 pm »
I tried my luck making formal representations which have been rejected.

I'm now set to make an appeal to the ETA.

Below are copies of my initial appeal, the notice of rejection and my proposed comments in the section asking for reason for appeal on the ETA form.

Please rip me to shreds and tell me the mistakes I've made or am making.




Original Appeal
Firstly I request that this PCN be considered concurrently with the following:
TT57905672
TT57918062
TT57920053
TT57928419
TT5792842A
TT57949372
TT57964434

For this I refer to ETA’s Register of Appeals -Case Reference 2140263304 where Mr Styles states “I consider that when I adjudicate on multiple penalty charges each deriving from the same mistake I have a duty to proceed so that the total penalty charge amount is not exorbitant, not disproportionate.”

Given all of the above PCN’s are for the same “mistake” of entering a pedestrian zone due to insufficient signage, and that it was not until the first notice was received in the post that I became aware of existence of the pedestrian zone, then it seems clear that a charge amount for each individual breach would be exorbitant and disproportionate.

With respect to the “mistake” I propose that all the penalties be cancelled as the signage around the intersection is such that it is not sufficient to warn drivers of the conditions that are inplace.

I refer to the ETA’s Register of Appeals -Case Reference 2220253407 which is a case covering the same pedestrian zone and where Ms Alderson states: "I note from the CCTV footage that the vehicle turns right into the restricted road. This junction appears to be immediately prior to the commencement of the restricted zone. There appear to be no warning signs on the road leading to the junction where the vehicle turned right, and although there is no statutory requirement for warning signs, I find that, without such warning, it is likely that a driver would be taken by surprise by the restriction immediately ahead of him as he turned right. I also note that, on the CCTV footage, the lefthand sign appears to face away from the relevant junction and is angled in such a way as to be unhelpful to a vehicle turning right. The righthand side faces oncoming traffic and also appears to be situated relatively high up. For these reasons, I am not satisfied that the signage on the day in question was insufficiently clear and I allow this appeal."

As with the facts in the above case, there remains no signage on approach to West Tenter Street to suggest you will be entering a restricted zone. The signage that is at the immediate point of entry was, both at the time of the offences and remains so as of 27/09/2024, angled and at a height such that it was not possible to view as the road is approached. This is shown both in the images provided on the PCN and more clearly in the attached photographs where it is clear that both signs are angled away from the driver as they approach the intersection. This prevents the signs from being visible on approach. Furthermore, they are at a height that prevents them from being seen as you enter the intersection.

Given these facts remain the same as the facts which led to the decision of Ms Alderson, I request that this notice and the other PCNs that have been issued for the same breaches of failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone be cancelled.

sillybilly9

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Re: Tower Hamlets - 53 - Pedestrian Zone - West Tenter St - Multiple Offences
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2024, 04:24:48 pm »
Just trying to upload the notice of rejection.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2024, 04:28:46 pm by sillybilly9 »

sillybilly9

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Re: Tower Hamlets - 53 - Pedestrian Zone - West Tenter St - Multiple Offences
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2024, 04:27:52 pm »
Notice of rejection

https://imgur.com/a/Znp2BZO

sillybilly9

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Re: Tower Hamlets - 53 - Pedestrian Zone - West Tenter St - Multiple Offences
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2024, 04:34:28 pm »
Proposing to submit the appeal saying the following...

As outlined in the appeal to Tower Hamlets which is copied below, it is my assertion that the signage at the time of the alleged offences was insufficiently clear to warn a driver they are about to enter a restricted zone at certain times of the day.

I note since I have lodged my appeal, the signage has been turned and is now more visible as you approach the intersection. At the time, the angling and height of the signs meant a reasonable driver would not have been able to see the signs. I propose that the fact that the signs have been turned would suggest Tower Hamlets agrees.

If the decision by Miss Alderson in Case Reference 2220253407 is not followed and my appeal rejected, I refer to Case Reference 2140263304 and propose that a total penalty charge of £1,040 is exorbient and disproportionate for the mistake of not being aware that the street had timed restrictions.

Original Appeal
Firstly I request that this PCN be considered concurrently with the following:
TT57905672
TT57918062
TT57920053
TT57928419
TT5792842A
TT57949372
TT57964434

For this I refer to ETA’s Register of Appeals -Case Reference 2140263304 where Mr Styles states “I consider that when I adjudicate on multiple penalty charges each deriving from the same mistake I have a duty to proceed so that the total penalty charge amount is not exorbitant, not disproportionate.”

Given all of the above PCN’s are for the same “mistake” of entering a pedestrian zone due to insufficient signage, and that it was not until the first notice was received in the post that I became aware of existence of the pedestrian zone, then it seems clear that a charge amount for each individual breach would be exorbitant and disproportionate.

With respect to the “mistake” I propose that all the penalties be cancelled as the signage around the intersection is such that it is not sufficient to warn drivers of the conditions that are inplace.

I refer to the ETA’s Register of Appeals -Case Reference 2220253407 which is a case covering the same pedestrian zone and where Ms Alderson states: "I note from the CCTV footage that the vehicle turns right into the restricted road. This junction appears to be immediately prior to the commencement of the restricted zone. There appear to be no warning signs on the road leading to the junction where the vehicle turned right, and although there is no statutory requirement for warning signs, I find that, without such warning, it is likely that a driver would be taken by surprise by the restriction immediately ahead of him as he turned right. I also note that, on the CCTV footage, the lefthand sign appears to face away from the relevant junction and is angled in such a way as to be unhelpful to a vehicle turning right. The righthand side faces oncoming traffic and also appears to be situated relatively high up. For these reasons, I am not satisfied that the signage on the day in question was insufficiently clear and I allow this appeal."

As with the facts in the above case, there remains no signage on approach to West Tenter Street to suggest you will be entering a restricted zone. The signage that is at the immediate point of entry was, both at the time of the offences and remains so as of 27/09/2024, angled and at a height such that it was not possible to view as the road is approached. This is shown both in the images provided on the PCN and more clearly in the attached photographs where it is clear that both signs are angled away from the driver as they approach the intersection. This prevents the signs from being visible on approach. Furthermore, they are at a height that prevents them from being seen as you enter the intersection.

Given these facts remain the same as the facts which led to the decision of Ms Alderson, I request that this notice and the other PCNs that have been issued for the same breaches of failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone be cancelled.

sillybilly9

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Re: Tower Hamlets - 53 - Pedestrian Zone - West Tenter St - Multiple Offences
« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2024, 03:15:49 pm »
You'll win this appeal at tribunals easily,  reasons: 1. the left signage is facing the building and not towards oncoming traffic.
2. No no Right Turn signage to warn drivers
3. The right signage is  obscured by poles before you turn, see pic.

Can I ask the source of this photo? Can I please use it?

Hippocrates

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Re: Tower Hamlets - 53 - Pedestrian Zone - West Tenter St - Multiple Offences
« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2024, 03:41:36 pm »
I am happy to assist with this one. BTW it is Miss Alderson. PM me if you wish to take up my offer.
How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

URGENT!

PLEASE SIGN MY PETITION TO EQUATE MOVING TRAFFIC LAW WITH BUS LANE LAW SO LONDON COUNCILS MUST ATTEND HEARINGS WHEN REQUIRED BY THE APPELLANT. 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/701491

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/petition-to-align-the-llaa-2003-to-the-llaa-1996-(right-to-x-council-witnesses)/msg56899/#msg56899

H C Andersen

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Re: Tower Hamlets - 53 - Pedestrian Zone - West Tenter St - Multiple Offences
« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2024, 06:24:18 pm »
A contra view!

The photo taken from the driver's seat of a vehicle approaching the junction on the wrong side of the road probably won't fool an adjudicator!

The road marking at the junction conveys a requirement which IMO in practical terms means that a vehicle approaching from the side road, as in this case, must give way to traffic in the major road being joined. There is nothing to suggest that this is a one-way street, because it isn't, therefore a cautious driver would pause at which point the twin zone signs would be evident.

sillybilly9

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Re: Tower Hamlets - 53 - Pedestrian Zone - West Tenter St - Multiple Offences
« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2024, 10:31:22 pm »
A contra view!

The photo taken from the driver's seat of a vehicle approaching the junction on the wrong side of the road probably won't fool an adjudicator!

The road marking at the junction conveys a requirement which IMO in practical terms means that a vehicle approaching from the side road, as in this case, must give way to traffic in the major road being joined. There is nothing to suggest that this is a one-way street, because it isn't, therefore a cautious driver would pause at which point the twin zone signs would be evident.

I have a number of photos taken from various points on the approach to the intersection. All show the sign on the left is at a significant angle, such that it can't be seen until you are in the intersection.

The sign on the right isn't turned as much but as has been noted is blocked by the poles, and as noted in the earlier decision made by the tribunal, is at a significant height, with that height meaning I can not see it when seated in the car at the intersection.

A big question for me is what weight does the earlier decision carry. I'm assuming it's not like my very basic knowledge of common law precedent but does the case carry significant weight as the facts are the same?

Other questions - how many photos should I attach
« Last Edit: November 05, 2024, 10:33:55 pm by sillybilly9 »

H C Andersen

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Re: Tower Hamlets - 53 - Pedestrian Zone - West Tenter St - Multiple Offences
« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2024, 10:35:04 pm »
A previous decision may be persuasive but is not binding.

sillybilly9

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My hearing for this case is tomorrow and I'm looking at doing some last minute research.

Is anyone able to advise how you search past tribunal cases. I'm sure I was able to do this previously by key word search but currently can't find how to do that.

Keen to re-read all cases from this particular camera as there have been many, some that have been allowed and some rejected. Also interested to search cases by adjudicator so I can get a sense of what I will be encountering. Any help appreciated.

Edit - I have found how to search by location. Now just keen to see if I can search recent decisions by my adjudicator.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2025, 06:14:32 pm by sillybilly9 »

stamfordman

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I don't think there are many adjudicated cases for West Tenter and most are not on the side road as yours when I looked.

Best of luck tomorrow. 

Incandescent

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Edit - I have found how to search by location. Now just keen to see if I can search recent decisions by my adjudicator.
The search criteria are what one finds on their webpage, and 'adjudicator' is not on that list. It is actually very fortunate that London Tribunals maintain a searchable statutory register, because the Traffic Penalty Tribunal don't.

stamfordman

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Very well played. Eight PCNs won.

-----------

2240500779

Mr and Mrs xxxxx attended this video appeal hearing. The Authority did not attend.

Ms xxxxx relied on her appeal notice ‘the signage at the time of the alleged offence was insufficiently clear to warn a driver they were about to enter a restricted zone. The PCN footage and attached photos….. show at the time of the alleged offence, the angling and height of the signs along with interfering poles prevented the driver from being able to see the signs before entering the intersection.’


Ms xxxxxx explained that she approached from South Tenter Street and turned right into the pedestrian zone. The entry point signage was angled towards the buildings, rather than then facing her car, as she approached. This is corroborated by the xxxxxx’ images taken on 19 September 2024, the day after the penalty charge notices were received.

The Authority submitted that the signage was adequate. It relied on the contemporaneous still images of the vehicle at the entry point and video evidence of the car entering the pedestrian zone.

These images and the video evidence establish vehicle has turned right into the pedestrian zone, though the entry point signs faced away from the direction of the car. The signs seem to be too high to be conspicuous from a driver’s seat, approaching in any direction.

The signs themselves are intrinsically adequate in that their contents are substantially complaint with the legislative requirements.

However both the contemporaneous still images and the video evidence demonstrate that the face of the signs do not face the driver and therefore are not conspicuous when approached by the driver.

The Authority’s additional library photographs show the said signs, though they are now at a different angle, facing the South Tenter Street approach. These photographs are not time stamped and show that the signs are at angles different from those in the contemporaneous images. The latter images establish that the signage did not face the driver.

Neither the contemporaneous images nor the library images show any advance warning signs on the South Tenter Street approach. The Authority is not required to place advance warning signs. Given that the entry point signs did not face the driver and were therefore inadequate, advance warnings might have warned the driver of the oncoming pedestrian zone.

The signage in place when this vehicle was driven in the pedestrian zone was not adequate.

The appeals are allowed.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2025, 10:17:55 am by stamfordman »
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