3. TLF Box Junction
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TLF Box Junction
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Hello everybody, I hope that you're all keeping well.

I rarely stop in box junctions and if I find myself having misjudged a car distance and entering one and I may have to stop, I typically drive at half a mile an hour or something which results in me never actually stopping (thus avoiding a contravention).

I received a PCN from TFL for allegedly stopping in a Box Junction in Streatham a few months ago, this was sent to my home address on 13/May/2023. I appealed it online on 16/May/2023 and I asked if I could see the Digital Media (not a photo, the actual video) as I don't believe that I would have actually stopped. I didn't hear anything back.

On 05/August/2023 I have received a letter stating that I now need to pay £240.00, which is considerably more than the original £60.00 (if I remember correctly). The reasons being:
"1. No representations were made in response to the penalty charge notice.
"2. We issued a Notice of Rejection of representations made against the penalty charge and have not been informed of an appeal having been made to the adjudicator within the period which an appeal could have been made.
3. There has been an unsuccesfful appeak against a notice of rejection."

I'm a bit confused. I would have though that if my appeal had been rejected, that I would have been sent another letter to say that it was rejected. Not just stay quiet and send me Charge Certificate for £240.00. Is this normal procedure? Is it down to the motorist to check rather than wait for a response?

Is there anyway of pushing back on this or do I just have to pay it?

To be clear, I don't have a problem with paying the initial charge if I did actually stop in the Box Junction. I just don't believe that I did and I have still not seen any video of this. I have attached a PDF of the PCN review online.

Thank you in advance for your help.

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Re: TLF Box Junction
« Reply #1 on: »
Quote
Is there anyway of pushing back on this or do I just have to pay it?
No, you don't just have to pay it.

You submitted reps but seem to not have received their rejection. In these circumstances, you need to wait for the Order for Recovery, (adds £9 to the CC amount), and then submit a Statutory Declaration that you submitted reps but did not receive a Notice of Rejection of those reps.  The matter will then revert back to the PCN stage.

So, do not pay the CC, but wait for the OfR.  If you have mail difficulties, wait until the period to pay the CC has expired, then, after about a week to ten days, contact TEC to enquire whether the PCN debt has been registered. Once it has, you can submit a Statutory Declaration even if the OfR hasn't been receivecd.  We give this suggested procedure because one doesn't want to miss the OfR and lose the opportunity to submit an in-time SD.

Is the address on your V5 correct and identical to that on the CC ?

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Re: TLF Box Junction
« Reply #2 on: »
+1

Suggest also ringing them again and asking for another copy of the video to be sent to you meanwhile.
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Re: TLF Box Junction
« Reply #3 on: »
£240 for a Charge Cert???

I thought it was still £130 full penlty, £65 if paid at 50% discount
Plus 50% for a CC....£195

Or has summat moved on without me noticing?
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Re: TLF Box Junction
« Reply #4 on: »
Quote from: DancingDad on August 07, 2023, 03:55:38 pm
£240 for a Charge Cert???

I thought it was still £130 full penlty, £65 if paid at 50% discount
Plus 50% for a CC....£195

Or has summat moved on without me noticing?

TfL PCN's are now £160
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Re: TLF Box Junction
« Reply #5 on: »
Quote from: Incandescent on August 07, 2023, 02:49:13 pm
Quote
Is there anyway of pushing back on this or do I just have to pay it?
No, you don't just have to pay it.

You submitted reps but seem to not have received their rejection. In these circumstances, you need to wait for the Order for Recovery, (adds £9 to the CC amount), and then submit a Statutory Declaration that you submitted reps but did not receive a Notice of Rejection of those reps.  The matter will then revert back to the PCN stage.

So, do not pay the CC, but wait for the OfR.  If you have mail difficulties, wait until the period to pay the CC has expired, then, after about a week to ten days, contact TEC to enquire whether the PCN debt has been registered. Once it has, you can submit a Statutory Declaration even if the OfR hasn't been receivecd.  We give this suggested procedure because one doesn't want to miss the OfR and lose the opportunity to submit an in-time SD.

Is the address on your V5 correct and identical to that on the CC ?

Thank you for your reply.

My address is 100% correct.

Is it not worth trying to make a Statutory Declaration immediately? I don't particularly want bayliffs at my door. How do I even make a Statutory Declaration? There is nowhere that I can see on the website to do this.

Finally, what is TEC?
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Re: TLF Box Junction
« Reply #6 on: »
Quote from: MrChips on August 07, 2023, 03:41:40 pm
+1

Suggest also ringing them again and asking for another copy of the video to be sent to you meanwhile.

Thank you. Do I just ring TFL General Enquiries and try to get through somewhere?

Assuming that I can get through somewhere, can't I just tell that person on the phone that if I stopped, I'll pay it and if I didn't stop, can they cancel the PCN? Seems logical to me, haha
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Re: TLF Box Junction
« Reply #7 on: »
Quote from: Pastmybest on August 07, 2023, 04:11:22 pm
........

TfL PCN's are now £160

Ta
That had slipped my mind... probably my age.
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Re: TLF Box Junction
« Reply #8 on: »
Quote
Is it not worth trying to make a Statutory Declaration immediately? I don't particularly want bayliffs at my door. How do I even make a Statutory Declaration? There is nowhere that I can see on the website to do this.

Finally, what is TEC?

TEC = Traffic Enforcement Center, a specialist Court based in Northampton.

Ther process is explained here
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/understanding-enforcement-process/bus-lane-pcn-enforcement-process

- scroll down to'Charge Certificate'

You will see that you cannot make a Statutory Declaration against the Order for Recovery until TfL have obtained the Order from the TEC.
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Re: TLF Box Junction
« Reply #9 on: »
Don't rely on the post, check the amount outstanding on the TFL website and as soon as it's gone up to £240, you can download form PE3 and make the statutory declaration (remember you are not the "applicant", the "applicant" is TFL). This mitigates the risk of the Order for Recovery being lost in the post.

In the meantime, have you got the video? If not, call TFL first as soon as possible and ask them, they will send you a DVD in the post.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: TLF Box Junction
« Reply #10 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on August 07, 2023, 08:31:56 pm
Don't rely on the post, check the amount outstanding on the TFL website and as soon as it's gone up to £240, you can download form PE3 and make the statutory declaration (remember you are not the "applicant", the "applicant" is TFL). This mitigates the risk of the Order for Recovery being lost in the post.

In the meantime, have you got the video? If not, call TFL first as soon as possible and ask them, they will send you a DVD in the post.

Thank you very much for the response. I have download the PE3 form. Reading it, I have to get it signed by a solicitor. Is this an additional cost of will solicitors do this free of charge?
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Re: TLF Box Junction
« Reply #11 on: »
Quote from: mentalist on August 21, 2023, 05:41:38 pm
Thank you very much for the response. I have download the PE3 form. Reading it, I have to get it signed by a solicitor. Is this an additional cost of will solicitors do this free of charge?
A high street solicitor might charge £5 - £10, but you can get the form witnessed for free at any county court or magistrates' court, you just need to book an appointment beforehand.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: TLF Box Junction
« Reply #12 on: »
Just posting an update. I have not received anything in the post so I have downloaded the PE3 form, filled it in (and signed it) and sent it off with signed delivery required.

What are my next steps? Just to wait?
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Re: TLF Box Junction
« Reply #13 on: »
Wait until you receive the statutory dec from TFL or check with TEC to see if the charge cert has been registered, then do it all again You cannot preempt the process if the charge is not registered the PE3 you have done will go in the bin
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Re: TLF Box Junction
« Reply #14 on: »
Meanwhile can you post the video so we can stay too consider defences?  Assume it's arrived by now?
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