3. Time limit to serve PCN? - Sutton (London) - Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian etc
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Re: Time limit to serve PCN? - Sutton (London) - Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian
« Reply #15 on: »
Quote from: duncedunce on May 09, 2024, 01:50:15 pm
.............
Response from the lease company:
Quote
Good afternoon XXXX,
 
The PCN is valid.
 
The PCN gets issued to your lease company first, then transfers to ourselves, which then transfers to yourself.
 
The counter date resets each time this gets transferred.
 
Kind regards

XXXX
The above seems to imply that the PCN has been served on at least two other parties before it reached you. Not just "your lease company". Some other entity in the chain of three has had the PCN. One might be a finance company and another is the lessor. That seems to make it less likely the PCN was served out of time on any of the three parties.

Who is the "ourselves"?

I suggest that you need to confirm whether Lex Autolease Ltd ever had the PCN at all, and when? Since they're the ones who received the (likely now cancelled) Charge Certificate. Did they submit a late representation that was accepted? That transferred liability to the mysterious "ourselves"?

At time of writing the PCN is sitting at £65, so sitting at the discount rate, which strictly speaking expires tomorrow Sunday.
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Re: Time limit to serve PCN? - Sutton (London) - Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian
« Reply #16 on: »
Quote from: Incandescent on May 25, 2024, 12:55:29 am
Something seems not right here at all, and much more explanation is needed from the lease company about what they did when the PCN was received by them, and why a Charge Certificate was served to them as it states no representations or payment was received within the 28 days allowed on the PCN.
I've seen this a lot, the simple answer is that when a lease company receive a charge certificate and then makes a late representation asking to transfer liability, councils have a propensity to accept the out of time representations. There is nothing to stop a council from accepting representations even though they were made out of time.

The timeline from the documents is clear:

Alleged contravention 20 February 2024.
PCN issued to Lex on 27 February 2024.
Charge certificate issued to Lex on 29 March 2024.
Late representations from Lex on some unknown date.
Fresh PCN issued to duncedunce on 13 May 2024.

So this doesn't really require further explanation, it requires something more solid to use at the tribunal.

@duncedunce, in the first instance please contact the lease company and ask them if, after they made representations, they ever heard back from the council. You need an answer in writing and ideally a copy of any correspondence they received.

We also need to see the terms and conditions of your lease agreement, just redact your personal details but post the actual T&Cs in full.

The traffic order is The Sutton (Traffic Restriction) (Pedestrian and Cycle Zones) (No. 1) Traffic Order 2021.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2024, 08:41:38 pm by cp8759 »
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Time limit to serve PCN? - Sutton (London) - Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian
« Reply #17 on: »
Thank you for your responses @Enceledus and @cp8759. I have been on holiday for a few days, so sorry for the time taken to respond.

Apologies also for not spotting it was a charge certificate and not the PCN. I should have realised it wasn't a PCN, but I am new to this and was rushing to get it uploaded rather than going through it.

@Enceladus, I agree that the wording and timelines evident from the charge certificate raise questions. However, I doubt I would ever get a useful response. This is a NHS Fleet Hire car, paid through salary sacrifice. NHS Fleet Hire acts as an intermediary between the leasee and the lease companies they use, and all my requests are going through them. But the contract is between Lex Autolease and myself.

@cp8759 I have a copy of the lease agreement now, and will upload it (suitably redacted) later. I have now made a request for:
  • the PCN served on Lex Autolease,
  • the representations by Lex Autolease, and
  • any response by LB Sutton to the representations (or a statement that such a response was not received)
I've also requested any other correspondence held by Lex Autolease about this matter.

Many thanks to everyone for the support and advice so far.
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Re: Time limit to serve PCN? - Sutton (London) - Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian
« Reply #18 on: »
Hello everyone

Here are the lease documents. I hope I've redacted what I need (and not too much):







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Re: Time limit to serve PCN? - Sutton (London) - Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian
« Reply #19 on: »
I have received the rejection letter for my reps:




I'm still awaiting a response from the lease company for the documents. I expect this to take a few days.
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Re: Time limit to serve PCN? - Sutton (London) - Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian
« Reply #20 on: »
@duncedunce I think you must have some additional terms and conditions about the car lease itself, such as things telling you not to misuse the car, and detailing what happens about servicing, insurance, treating the car with due car and all that standard stuff you'd expect.

In fact I'm not sure the variation of contract you've posted is part of the leasing contract at all.

I also don't think the lease is with you, it seems to me the lease is with your employer, so there was no proper basis to transfer liability to you in the first place.

Anyway, the decision you now need to make is whether you want to appeal, I will drop you a PM in case you'd like to be represented on appeal to the tribunal.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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