3. Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited - camera enforcement (Hammersmith & Fulham)
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Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited - camera enforcement (Hammersmith & Fulham)
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Hi All

Was sorry to see Pepipoo bite the dust - thank you to those who were there and moved here. I had a couple of PCN's cancelled (including one won in court for my elderly mother) thanks to the advice.

So, as the registered keeper of the vehicle I received the Penalty Charge Notice from Hammersmith and Fulham.



The driver has indicated that, if this was the day in question, they were forced to stop in the box as another car in effect cut across them into the lane they were entering. Despite this the amount of time they were stationary was a few seconds and so hopefully de mininimis would apply.

there is no indication of how long the vehicle was stopped.

Any thoughts appreciated
« Last Edit: September 05, 2024, 12:07:57 pm by TheEngineer »
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Re: Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited - camera enforcement (Hammersmith & Fulham)
« Reply #1 on: »
Which car?

It's a horribly big box and anything looks trivial to me and the rearmost car looks like it had room to exit ahead.

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Re: Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited - camera enforcement (Hammersmith & Fulham)
« Reply #2 on: »
4th car to enter nearest the camera. Have shown this to the driver and he was conscious of the cyclist coming in from his left and so didn't aim for the space near the kerb. Obviously it wasn't the day they were "cut up"!

Also although the car is moving forward very slowly at one point before coming to a complete stop I reckon 10 seconds at most stationary.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2024, 01:29:25 pm by TheEngineer »
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Re: Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited - camera enforcement (Hammersmith & Fulham)
« Reply #3 on: »
4 seconds max.?
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IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r
Re: Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited - camera enforcement (Hammersmith & Fulham)
« Reply #4 on: »
Ok so my representation will be, from the options, that the contravention did not occur

As it is an online form this is what I am thinking - please feel free to tell me what to change:


The contravention did not occur as:
1. Any period the vehicle was stationary was so short the principle of De minimis would apply.
2. The driver of the vehicle had to react and take into account the cyclists on both sides of the vehicle which prevent them from safely exiting the box.
3. The exit was clear when the driver entered the box junction with enough space for the driver to exit if the second car in front had not stopped prematurely after exiting the box junction (possibly due to the action of the cyclists.
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Re: Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited - camera enforcement (Hammersmith & Fulham)
« Reply #5 on: »
Ok so in a move that is as much of a surprise as The Pope being revealed as a Catholic, they have rejected my appeal. So I now have to decide whether to cough up the £65 by next Monday or go to adjudication.

The reason given was:

"The circumstances detailed in your letter do not amount to grounds for cancellation of this PCN and are not supported by the evidence.

The driver should no enter the box junction until the exit is clear

The contravention occurs as soon as any part of the vehicle stops on the box and a PCN correctly upheld even if the driver believes the vehicle was not causing an obstruction. Motorists have a responsibility to ensure that they allow enough space between their own vehicle and the vehicle ahead. They must have an adequate field of view, and enough time to respond to road signs and markings"

They then include a link to view the "offence".

It appears to be a "template" rejection, especially considering the fact that I did not send a letter to them (it was all done online / electronically). The location is here:
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5044282,-0.2183783,3a,75y,82.54h,81.01t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1swl81_gqd9rw7I454hugdcQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D8.991744647729064%26panoid%3Dwl81_gqd9rw7I454hugdcQ%26yaw%3D82.54396344722184!7i16384!8i8192?coh=205410&entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTAwNy4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

As always, all thoughts / advice welcome.

I have been reading up on this as much as I can - one thing appears to be the council has falsely claimed that "The contravention occurs as soon as any part of the vehicle stops on the box" when the The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 clearly lists exceptions to this.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2024, 06:07:52 pm by TheEngineer »
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Re: Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited - camera enforcement (Hammersmith & Fulham)
« Reply #6 on: »
OK so my appeal to the adjudicator is on the following grounds:

The council have not addressed any of the issues I raised in the appeal and appear to have merely used a "copy and paste" rejection.

They incorrectly stated that my appeal was made by letter when in fact it was made online.

They have incorrectly stated the rules regarding box junctions in The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016

The council has not answered my reasons for appeal and merely repeated them back as part of the rejection.

Anything else I should add?
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