3. Ticket issues at 7.52am sunday at Milton Keynes travelodge
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Re: Ticket issues at 7.52am sunday at Milton Keynes travelodge
« Reply #15 on: »
Quote from: bebu on October 06, 2023, 12:20:31 am
I got to my car before 8am. Probably 5 or 10 mins after the ticket was issued
What happened after the ticket was issued isn't really important, I'm trying to work out the sequence of events prior to the PCN being issued. The PCN was issued at 7:52, did you see the enforcement officer? Did the officer see you? From what you say it sounds like you got to the car between 7:52 and 8 am?

You haven't answered my original question: when exactly did you leave the hotel room to start making your way to the car?
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Ticket issues at 7.52am sunday at Milton Keynes travelodge
« Reply #16 on: »
I have to say this one looks difficult because the restriction to permit holders applies on all days of the week between 07.00 and 08.30, when one can pay to park.
NOt only that, the sign with the restrictions is right by the OPs car, if you look at the first photo, it is to the left, although only partly visible, but I can't see an adjudicator saying the sign wasn't visible.

Basically, the OP didn't look before parking-up and going to bed exhausted. OK, wew've all done it, but unfortunately exhaustion is not grounds for a valid appeal. Sorry to be so negative but I see no outcome other than pay the discount. Quite why Milton Keynes Council have this rather odd restriction, only they know, It applies Monday to Sunday; why ?
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Re: Ticket issues at 7.52am sunday at Milton Keynes travelodge
« Reply #17 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on October 06, 2023, 12:58:06 am
Quote from: bebu on October 06, 2023, 12:20:31 am
I got to my car before 8am. Probably 5 or 10 mins after the ticket was issued
What happened after the ticket was issued isn't really important, I'm trying to work out the sequence of events prior to the PCN being issued. The PCN was issued at 7:52, did you see the enforcement officer? Did the officer see you? From what you say it sounds like you got to the car between 7:52 and 8 am?

You haven't answered my original question: when exactly did you leave the hotel room to start making your way to the car?

I must have left the hotel room at 7.50-ish, as its less than 2 minutes walk to my car and on getting to the car, I saw the ticket but did not see any enforcement officer. I then drove around the complex. I know for sure it was before 8am

I find it strange to enforce 24 hours parking even on sunday. As My uncle lives in paddington central london and its free to park weekends

So what should my appeal be based upon ?
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Re: Ticket issues at 7.52am sunday at Milton Keynes travelodge
« Reply #18 on: »
Nothing strange about enforcing 7 days a week, we see it all the time, indeed 24x7 is very common. Reason for it is it makes so much money for the councils, the traffic management aspect is about 5%
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Re: Ticket issues at 7.52am sunday at Milton Keynes travelodge
« Reply #19 on: »
So what should my appeal be based upon ?

Many thanks
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Re: Ticket issues at 7.52am sunday at Milton Keynes travelodge
« Reply #20 on: »
All you can really submit in your representations is a request for them to apply mitigation, based on your narrative given to us, and ask that on this ocasion, the PCN be cancelled.  Be aware that if refused and you take the matter further, the adjudicators cannot apply mitigation, it is in the sole power of the council. In addition, the full PCN penalty would be in play.
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Re: Ticket issues at 7.52am sunday at Milton Keynes travelodge
« Reply #21 on: »
I disagree, here's what I would send:

Dear Milton Keynes Council,

I challenge liability on the grounds that the alleged contravention did not occur. At the time when the CEO observed my vehicle, I was engaged in loading and assisted boarding. For context, I had stayed in the travelodge hotel and was in the process of leaving, when the CEO observed my car I was making my way back to the vehicle with my elderly father and around 20 KG of luggage. I was accompanying my father to Heathrow airport and his flight was due to take off at 11 am.

While I appreciate why the CEO might have thought I was in contravention, if he had observed the vehicle for only a couple more minutes he would have seen me return to my vehicle and it would have been obvious to him that I was engaged in loading bulky luggage.

In the circumstances the alleged contravention did not occur.

Obviously we don't know at this stage if the traffic order has a loading exemption, but almost all TROs we see have such an exemption so we might as well have a go.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Ticket issues at 7.52am sunday at Milton Keynes travelodge
« Reply #22 on: »
It's a toss up really between asking them to exercise discretion and contesting liability with a story which as yet has no backing as regards evidence.

OP,is checking out a formal process, if so there might be a record?

As you are beyond the discount period you're in for the full penalty anyway unless it's re-offered. Can you bolster your challenge with anything of substance e.g. your dad's age, any physical conditions etc.

IMO, you should pre-empt the council's possible cynical view which would be that you displayed the Travelodge's permit, but parked in the wrong place and had been in contravention anyway for nearly an hour. Your posts here imply that you knew of the restriction but thought that at 8am you'd be safe.

IMO, there's nothing wrong with combining both suggested approaches and ask them to exercise discretion should they feel they haven't got sufficient reasons to cancel under your main grounds, for example if your loading and assisted boarding are not exemptions to the restriction. I think the last point is important, you want them to declare two things: whether loading and assisted boarding are exemptions(and whether they consider that your submission meets their threshold; and why, if they do not exercise discretion, they are not minded to do so on this occasion. At present the challenge doesn't draw them on these essentials but simply asserts and invites a thinly reasoned rejection.
And remember, you also want to encourage them to re-offer the discount.
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Re: Ticket issues at 7.52am sunday at Milton Keynes travelodge
« Reply #23 on: »
Interesting. Many thanks guys. I re-worded my appeal as thus


Dear Milton Keynes Council,

I challenge liability on the grounds that the alleged contravention did not occur and in this case, a waiver based on compassionate grounds. At the time when the CEO observed my vehicle, I was engaged in loading and assisted boarding. For context, I had stayed in the travelodge hotel and was in the process of leaving, when the CEO observed my car I was making my way back to the vehicle with my elderly father and around two 20 KG of luggage (Total of over 40kg and a hand luggage, for my dad and my own personal luggage. Total of 4 luggages). I was accompanying my aged father to Heathrow airport and his flight was due to take off at 11 am.

My father is 87 ( in January) and a widower (This can easily be confirmed as he flew BA)

Notably I returned to the vehicle around 7.53am (With the 1st sets of luggage) and the ticket was issued at 7.52am

While I appreciate why the CEO might have thought I was in contravention, if he had observed the vehicle for only a couple more minutes he would have seen me return to my vehicle and it would have been obvious to him that I was engaged in loading bulky luggage. I then drove around the complex, but did not see him ( Despite driving around the complex ) We departed the premises at 8.04am ( See whatsapp message to my cousin, I repeat the ticket was issued 7.52am)

In the circumstances the alleged contravention did not occur

I have attached a screenshot of my whatsapp message to my cousin, who was to meet us at the airport in Heathrow. Sent at 8.04am, telling him we were loaded up and leaving for heathrow

The time on my phone reads 8.19am ( As my phone is 15mins fast,as I intentionally set it as so, to keep me on time at work) I have also attached a copy of a screenshot of my cousin and brothers phone (which shows the correct time)

There is no way, I can ask my 87 year old father to walk to the back of the complex with over 50kg of luggage. Neither can I carry it alone, as I had driven 4 hours to MK and then 1 hour to the airport and 1 hour back to London and 4 hours back home.

In lieu of the above, I hereby request the charges be waived

Many thanks
« Last Edit: October 07, 2023, 10:32:16 pm by bebu »
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Re: Ticket issues at 7.52am sunday at Milton Keynes travelodge
« Reply #24 on: »
The other thing, is which option do I chose ?



Parking
16-Parked in a permit space without displaying a valid permit

We will consider your appeal according to our appeals policy. If your reason for appeal is not listed in the policy, we are unlikely to accept it. However we will still consider your case individually.

Pay and display (P&D) or Cashless
The following circumstances are relating to scenarios involving P&D tickets or cashless parking sessions.

Select a reason:
 I had a Pay and Display (P&D) ticket 
 I made a mistake when purchasing my pay and display (P&D) ticket 
 I paid by phone or app 
 I was in a rush and forgot to pay 
 The ticket machine was broken and I couldn't purchase a P&D ticket 
Permits
The following circumstances are relating to scenarios involving parking permits.

Select a reason:
 I had a permit 
Blue Badge
The following circumstances are relating to scenarios involving Blue Badges

Select a reason:
 I had a Blue Badge 
Emergency / beyond driver's control
Reasons that relate to something unexpected happening to the motorist that must be seen to immediately

Select a reason:
 I became unwell while driving 
 I had to see to my child as they needed the toilet 
 My passenger became unwell while I was driving 
 My vehicle had broken down 
 My vehicle was cloned 
 My vehicle was stolen 
PCN wrongly / unfairly issued
Reasons where it may appear that the PCN was issued unfairly or incorrectly.

Select a reason:
 I only stopped for a few minutes 
 I was not the driver 
 I was not the owner of the vehicle 
 I was only a few minutes late back to my vehicle 
 I was unaware of the rules 
 The vehicle was on hire to someone else 
 There was nowhere else to park 
 I have already paid the PCN 
Other
Other reasons we have received that do not fall into one of the above categories.

Select a reason:
 I didn't see any signs or lines 
 I was loading / unloading at the time 
None of the above
If none of the above reasons apply, and you wish to challenge your PCN, please select below:

Select a reason:
 Any other reason 
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Re: Ticket issues at 7.52am sunday at Milton Keynes travelodge
« Reply #25 on: »
I would go for "any other reason".
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Ticket issues at 7.52am sunday at Milton Keynes travelodge
« Reply #26 on: »
Winning team    :)  :D  ;D  8)  ::)  :P

Just got an email today that the PCN has been cancelled, good will gesture

Thank you everyone. Whoop ! Whoop !!
« Last Edit: October 18, 2023, 09:22:30 am by bebu »
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Re: Ticket issues at 7.52am sunday at Milton Keynes travelodge
« Reply #27 on: »
I had a PCN also from heathrow airport, I drove throw the terminal 5 drop off location.

I later drove my dad into the parking lot and paid on exit, I then got a PCN in the post, saying I did not pay at the drop off location

So I sent an explaination that I had paid 4x at the parking lot and got let off

Results ............!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  :D  ;D  :o  8)  ::)  ;)


My sincere appreciation to everyone. Thank you
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Re: Ticket issues at 7.52am sunday at Milton Keynes travelodge
« Reply #28 on: »
Logged
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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