Author Topic: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31  (Read 1359 times)

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TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
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https://ibb.co/dcdB8nb

Good day
I barely recall this moment. I am usually very careful about getting caught in junction boxes. On this day I recall somehow having my vision blocked or someone cutting in or, perhaps, I just kept creeping along until the traffic ahead of me cleared
At any rate, the evidence is video-based but I see no links to view the video. I cannot argue against evidence that I cannot see
Also, the 14-day 'discount'period, it is stated, begins from the date of notice, not from the date of service
As well, the closest Ground for representations mention 'why there was no faiure to drive the vehicle in the way shown on the sign'. Obviously, with a junction box, there is no 'sign'
Thank you for you attention
« Last Edit: July 23, 2023, 06:22:17 pm by gumph69 »

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Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
« Reply #1 on: »
Hello.

For PCNs issued by TFL the only way to access the video is to call them and request it - they will put the penalty on hold for a few days and send you a DVD in the post.

Please do this asap as we cannot assist without seeing the primary evidence.

Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
« Reply #2 on: »
Thank you, Mr Chips
That seems like an extraordinary hurdle to obtain basic evidence. Nonetheless, I will do it in the morning

Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
« Reply #3 on: »
I have made the request to TFL for a copy of the evidence. They will put the case on hold for 2 weeks in the interim. I will post if and when I receive it. I do not imagine that the tiny photos on the PCN link will provide much clarity
I note that the contact number for this request appears nowhere on the PCN or representation fact sheet. It is, perhaps, a bigger issue but it should not involved locating a phone number and waiting on hold for a phone call to be answered in order to obtain the necessary evidence to make an appeal. I would call that a procedural impropriety
Thank you

Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
« Reply #4 on: »
It is, perhaps, a bigger issue but it should not involved locating a phone number and waiting on hold for a phone call to be answered in order to obtain the necessary evidence to make an appeal. I would call that a procedural impropriety
Unfortunately under the legislation, TFL are not required to supply the footage at all. TFL could say that they're going above and beyond by supplying anything, they don't even have to supply photos.

The truth is they only provide photos and videos because they think it will persuade more people to pay up.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
« Reply #5 on: »
Thank you for that. I accept that you know the facts

Nonetheless, I find it difficult to reconcile that a government body can prosecute someone and not be obliged to produce the evidence, in discovery, on which they rely

What you seem to be saying is that TFL, in this case, can simply say ‘you committed a contravention, take our word for it, pay up. We are not obliged to give you a fair opportunity to defend yourself’

Wow

Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
« Reply #6 on: »
The PCN offers you an opportunity to accept liability and pay the penalty immediately, and in exchange for that you get a 50% discount. You are entirely within your rights make representations and if those are rejected, you have a legal right to go to the tribunal and at that stage, TFL will have to disclose all the evidence it relies on. The problem is that by then, the discount will be long gone.

This is no different to a criminal case where someone might be offered a fixed penalty or a police caution, in either scenario the police don't need to disclose any evidence as the accussed has to be willing to accept the out of court disposal. The accussed is 100% entitled to go to court, plead not guilty and require the police to prove their case with evidence, but at that point the out-of-court option is gone. Even if no out-of-court disposal is ever offered, you get up to a 33% discount on any criminal fine by pleading guilty at the earliest opportunity (which again saves the police and the CPS the trouble of proving their case at trial).

There is a compelling argument that if someone is willing to accept liability without putting the state to the trouble and expense of proving its case, the accused should be rewarded with a discount on the punishment.

There is a counter-argument that such arrangements will incentivise some innocent people to accept guilt or liability to avoid the risk of a more severe punishment.

Whether these arrangements should be the way they are is a political issue rather than a legal one of course, when dealing with a live case we can only deal with the law as it currently stands.

All that being said, TFL do voluntarily provide the video, so it's all a bit academic.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
« Reply #7 on: »
Just a quick update for the record
I requested an evidentiary DVD to be sent to me on 24/7. It still has not arrived
I rang TFL yesterday and they said that it takes 14 working days (originally 14 days) to arrive.
Hopefully they will continue to put the matter on hold until I receive the disc

Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
« Reply #8 on: »
The deadline to make representations is Sunday and I wouldn't take any chances.

If you've not had the video in Saturday's post at the latest, send a representation as follows:

Dear Transport for London,

Despite repeated requests, I have not received the video. As I have not seen any footage, I can deny that the contravention occurred and I request that if you reject this representation, you send me a copy of the video footage you rely on. I trust that given the delay in sending me the video, you will reoffer the 50% discount in any event.

Yours faithfully,


Also please give us the number plate so that we can see the case history on TFL's website.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
« Reply #9 on: »
I shall follow your advice. I will call tomorrow and put it in writing on Saturday

EF61MVX

Thank you

Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
« Reply #10 on: »
I received the DVD last this evening
I am not sure how to share it with the Forum
Thank you

Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
« Reply #11 on: »
It seems that the car in front of me stopped way short of the car in from of him, leaving me with insufficient room to clear the juntion box. I slowed but had already entered the box in reasonable anticipation that the car in front of me would leave me with sufficient space. When they stopped with a large space in front of them, the back half of my car was forced to stop for about 5 seconds over the yellow lines

Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
« Reply #12 on: »
Best way to share it is to either upload to youtube/vimeo or to a dropbox folder or similar and post up a link.

Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
« Reply #13 on: »
I hope this link works



Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
« Reply #14 on: »
Video doesn't show your entry into the box, nor does it show why you stopped, therefore is not valid as evidence. However, the council will stonewall, so you'd have to go to London Tribunals.