3. TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
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TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
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PCN received by post addressed to "The Company Secretary" for an alleged yellow box contravention.
The driver can't remember the event. The CCTV photos provided are 4 seconds apart and so I'm not sure a de minimis argument can be made.
I have read that addressing to "The Company Secretary" might be a flaw?

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Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
« Reply #1 on: »
VRM: AF72TFO
PCN: GX0883096A
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Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
« Reply #2 on: »
Call TFL and ask for the video, they will put the penalty on hold and send you a DVD in the post.

Also, please tell us what your connection is t the limited company.

As long as the car is actually registered to a company there's nothing wrong with the PCN being addressed to the Company Secretary, but TFL have a habit of messing up the process when it comes to limited companies making representations, see paragraphs 68 to 70 of https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/default/files/keycases/Red%20Route%20Panel%20Decision.pdf
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
« Reply #3 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on July 29, 2023, 03:46:17 pm
Call TFL and ask for the video, they will put the penalty on hold and send you a DVD in the post.

Also, please tell us what your connection is t the limited company.

As long as the car is actually registered to a company there's nothing wrong with the PCN being addressed to the Company Secretary, but TFL have a habit of messing up the process when it comes to limited companies making representations, see paragraphs 68 to 70 of https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/default/files/keycases/Red%20Route%20Panel%20Decision.pdf

Thanks, I will do that.
The driver of the car is a company director.
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Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
« Reply #4 on: »
The absolute deadline to make representations is 24 August 2023, but really you should chase the video if you've not had it within a week or so.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
« Reply #5 on: »
I have requested the footage. They've placed a hold on the PCN for 14 days.
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Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
« Reply #6 on: »
No sign of a DVD.
I'll call them to chase it...
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Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
« Reply #7 on: »
Finally have the DVD.

Seems bang to rights.

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Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
« Reply #8 on: »
Quote from: NotFair on July 29, 2023, 06:09:08 pm
Quote from: cp8759 on July 29, 2023, 03:46:17 pm
Call TFL and ask for the video, they will put the penalty on hold and send you a DVD in the post.

Also, please tell us what your connection is t the limited company.

As long as the car is actually registered to a company there's nothing wrong with the PCN being addressed to the Company Secretary, but TFL have a habit of messing up the process when it comes to limited companies making representations, see paragraphs 68 to 70 of https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/default/files/keycases/Red%20Route%20Panel%20Decision.pdf

Thanks, I will do that.
The driver of the car is a company director.

Who is the vehicle registered to
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Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
« Reply #9 on: »
The company.

Well, the full registration is...

"Driver's name c/o Company's name"

...as the driver, who is a director, is the only driver of the car.
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Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
« Reply #10 on: »
I'm away on holiday at the moment so can't wait check myself but I think I've seen previous cases here and there might be an argument that the side road (Ealing village) isn't a road to which the public have unfettered access, and hence isn't a 'road' under the yellow box junction regulations.

If that's right, there's no contravention in spite of the video showing a clear entering and stopping due to stationary vehicles...
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Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
« Reply #11 on: »
Ealing Village is a private road and has space for 132 vehicles. There currently is not a parking permit system. Instead everyone is encouraged to co-operate in a voluntary approach to moderate the use of parking on the estate.

(From a quick Google search)
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Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
« Reply #12 on: »
Quote from: NotFair on August 26, 2023, 07:52:00 pm
Finally have the DVD.

Seems bang to rights.
Not if you look at the "junction" from here:

https://goo.gl/maps/QE89gHurxd74qC8B9

This is easy peasy:

Dear Transport for London,

The alleged contravention did not occur, and the box junction markings need to be removed from this location. This is because Ealing Village is not a road to which the public have access, it is a gated drive to which there is no public access. It follows that the box junction markings are not at the junction of two or more roads, so no contravention can ever occur at this location.

Yours faithfully,

@mrmustard, one for next year's objections against TFL's accounts.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
« Reply #13 on: »
Various sources highlight this as one of the most penalised box junctions in London, so would be good to get a decision that it's not valid.

Prior to my previous post I did search through multiple successful tribunal decisions at this location and none were based on this argument.  Perhaps TFL tactically do not contest where this ground is raised?
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Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
« Reply #14 on: »
Quote from: MrChips on August 28, 2023, 12:41:10 pm
Prior to my previous post I did search through multiple successful tribunal decisions at this location and none were based on this argument.  Perhaps TFL tactically do not contest where this ground is raised?
My suspicion is that nobody has ever raised it.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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