Author Topic: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane  (Read 1465 times)

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NotFair

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Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2024, 09:12:55 am »
Thanks for the replies.

Unfortunately cp8759, I missed your message. It turns out all e-mail notifications from this forum appear to be getting intercepted by the spam filter, which is a shame, as I'd have taken you up on it.

The hearing was on the papers. I had no ability to attend personally.

I will dig out the original reps.

This was my LT appeal (which I expect to be criticised for!):

Quote
ABUSE OF PROCESS
Transport for London have taken in excess of 5 months to respond to the representations initially submitted. This is significantly more than the 56 day limit stated in the regulations. It is highly unreasonable for Transport for London to abuse the process in this manner. Despite the length of time taken, their response does not in any way address the representations submitted and almost entirely ignores the core issue raised. This is unreasonably dismissive and constitutes a failure to consider.

ORIGINAL REPRESENTATIONS
TfL have largely ignored the original representation that the yellow box junction in question is invalid. The yellow box does not meet the official definition per the law. We maintain that the contravention cannot have occurred on this basis.

MrChips

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Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
« Reply #31 on: May 28, 2024, 09:26:12 am »
Alas, yes, an in person (or on the phone) appeal would have helped here as there's nothing in the text below which guides the adjudicator as to why you think the road doesn't meet the legal definition (key to stress it's private and gated so the public don't have unfettered access).  A link to that picture on Google Street View with the gate closed would have been really useful.

The reference to 56 days probably also threw him off as that's a misstatement of the box junction legislation.  He needed to be reminded (made aware?) that the adjudicators have themselves stated 3 months as the benchmark for unfair delay without a good excuse from TFL.

Not trying to make you feel worse, just trying to be constructive for future cases to avoid same mistake being made twice.

Hopefully, someone here can assist with a review application.

meaty

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Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
« Reply #32 on: May 28, 2024, 09:25:16 pm »
Alas, yes, an in person (or on the phone) appeal would have helped here as there's nothing in the text below which guides the adjudicator as to why you think the road doesn't meet the legal definition
I find it unbelievable that these adjudicators who are supposed to be the experts need to be led by lay people. Is there anything in their remit that says they must put on blinkers and only look at what they've been told? They should check the legality of every box as part of a standard process regardless of whether or not it is raised in the appeal.

Incandescent

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Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
« Reply #33 on: May 28, 2024, 10:17:52 pm »
Alas, yes, an in person (or on the phone) appeal would have helped here as there's nothing in the text below which guides the adjudicator as to why you think the road doesn't meet the legal definition
I find it unbelievable that these adjudicators who are supposed to be the experts need to be led by lay people. Is there anything in their remit that says they must put on blinkers and only look at what they've been told? They should check the legality of every box as part of a standard process regardless of whether or not it is raised in the appeal.
Well, sorry, but they are adjudicators, so must only deal with the evidence presented to them by the two parties. That's the way it works, and is intended to work, so if there is a next time, come on here and never, ever, go for an adjudication on papers-only basis.

NotFair

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Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
« Reply #34 on: May 28, 2024, 11:19:13 pm »
Do the adjudicators not refer to the original reps (as is stated when completing the tribunal application)?

I didn't include all the fine details as they're all mentioned in the reps, which they say they will read...

The process is unfair to the lay person (me) if the adjudication only looks at the tribunal form and absolutely nothing else.

Incandescent

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Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
« Reply #35 on: May 28, 2024, 11:22:40 pm »
Have you requested a review of the decision ?

meaty

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Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
« Reply #36 on: May 29, 2024, 12:00:58 am »
Alas, yes, an in person (or on the phone) appeal would have helped here as there's nothing in the text below which guides the adjudicator as to why you think the road doesn't meet the legal definition
I find it unbelievable that these adjudicators who are supposed to be the experts need to be led by lay people. Is there anything in their remit that says they must put on blinkers and only look at what they've been told? They should check the legality of every box as part of a standard process regardless of whether or not it is raised in the appeal.
Well, sorry, but they are adjudicators, so must only deal with the evidence presented to them by the two parties. That's the way it works, and is intended to work, so if there is a next time, come on here and never, ever, go for an adjudication on papers-only basis.
Wasn't me doing the appeal. How do you know this is the way it is intended to work? Do you have a link to their terms of reference or job description that says this? Its not "evidence" that's the issue. The "evidence" of an illegal box is staring them in the face, its the fact they refuse to consider or check it unless a lay motorist raises it. I saw the same for years at the illegal box outside camberwell bus garage.

NotFair

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Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
« Reply #37 on: May 29, 2024, 08:53:18 pm »
Not yet.
I came here to seek some advice first.
Please feel free to suggest what I should write?
I thought my tribunal appeal was fine 🤷🏽.
Clearly it wasn't.

Incandescent

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Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
« Reply #38 on: May 29, 2024, 09:56:58 pm »
Not yet.
I came here to seek some advice first.
Please feel free to suggest what I should write?
I thought my tribunal appeal was fine 🤷🏽.
Clearly it wasn't.
Have you posted the full reps, and was it put up here for a review before the adjudication ?  ALso this was a papers-based adjudication ?  Bitter experience here of papers-based adjudications means we never recommend this. I'm afraid it is a fact that there are some adjudicators at LT that can only be described as "time servers". So best to go for a review if you're still in time to request one.

NotFair

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Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
« Reply #39 on: May 29, 2024, 11:14:58 pm »
Yes, post 19. I posted that a couple of days before submission to TfL.

It was, unfortunately, a papers hearing. Lesson learned.

I still have 5 days to go before the 14 days for review are up. I am just wondering what to write and how to phrase, as the review criteria seem very specific.

Incandescent

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Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
« Reply #40 on: May 30, 2024, 12:35:35 am »
Sod the Review Criteria, you have the right to request a review ! Hopeflly, you'll get one of the more experienced adjudicators on the review. 

I would go for "in the interests of justice", because over the years since decriminalise enforcement came in in 1991 nearly 35 years ago, there have been High Court rulings on the process, one of which clearly stated that if a public authority are given penal powers by Parliament, the expectation is that those powers will be exercised fairly and expeditiously

Information on the London Tribunals website as you posted, mentions the problems that can arise for excessive delay in enforcement. This adjudicator ignored his own website !

I'm afraid your case is a classic example of why we recommend never to opt for a papers-based hearing.

meaty

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Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
« Reply #41 on: May 30, 2024, 10:19:09 pm »
I am just wondering what to write and how to phrase, as the review criteria seem very specific.
Please see below. Add a photo of the gate with the yellow box if not already clear. Was the gate closed when you got your ticket? Use template at link below. I have emailed review request to them in the past
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/ruc/your-hearing/i-dont-agree-ruca-adjudicators-decision-what-can-i-do

I am requesting a review in the interest of justice. The adjudicator failed to address and consider the very specific fact that the second alleged "road" is private and gated and the public does not have access. It is therefore not a "road" as per the RTA 1988 definition and the yellow box is not in a permited location. I quote below some legal cases that further confirm this viewpoint. There is no information/detail as to how the adjudicator came to his conclusion. TfL also failed to provide any evidence that it is a "road" to which the public have access.

https://www.londondrinkdrivingsolicitor.co.uk/-What-is-a-road-anyway
"Mrs Justice Rafferty held in Hallett v DPP that the presence of a sign or barrier lends weight to a claim that the land is open only to a special class of the public and thus that it is not a road to which the public has access."

"The Divisional Court, presided over by Lord Widgery, heard the case of Deacon v AT (A Minor) and concluded that the land must be open to the public in general and not merely a special class of the public, such as residents or visitors."
« Last Edit: May 30, 2024, 10:22:57 pm by meaty »

MrChips

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Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
« Reply #42 on: June 01, 2024, 12:26:20 pm »
Worth also including a reference to the fact the adjudicator seems to have ignored the fact that (as quoted on London Tribunals own website) "the adjudicators have decided that a Enforcement Authority should normally respond to representations within 3 months."  In this case, TFL have given no explanation to justify the undue delay in sending their Notice of Rejection.

https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/understanding-enforcement-process/moving-traffic-pcn-enforcement-process

NotFair

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Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
« Reply #43 on: June 03, 2024, 02:02:37 pm »
Thanks all.

There is a helpful website which actually has a pretty perfect photograph of the exact junction in question, gate and all, which I've included in my appeal for review: https://www.yellowboxes.co.uk/1-the-box

I've submitted this:

---

Following the decision of Adjudicator Mr John Lane, in which my appeal was refused, I now wish to apply to the adjudicator for a review of the decision under paragraph 12 of Schedule 1 to The Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (England) Regulations 2022. I am making this application within 14 days of the date of the adjudicator’s decision.
I am seeking review on the following ground(s): The interests of justice require a review.
My reasons for applying for a review are as follows:
1.   The adjudicator failed to address and consider the very specific fact that the second alleged "road" is private and gated to which the public does not have access. It is therefore not a "road" as per the Road Traffic Act 1988 definition and the yellow box is therefore not in a permitted location. This was detailed in the original appeal to TfL, but does not appear to have been considered by the adjudicator. I enclose a photograph below of the supposed “road” in question, and the yellow box. This is clearly private, gated, closed, and thus the “road” is not at all accessible to the public. It therefore fails to meet the legal definition of “road”. It should be noted that the gate was closed at the time of the alleged contravention.
 

I quote below some legal cases, and also a London Tribunals adjudication, that further confirm this viewpoint. There is no information/detail as to how the adjudicator came to his conclusion. TfL also failed to provide any evidence that it is a "road" to which the public have access.


London Tribunals case 2220655535 (Kate Gardener vs London Borough of Croydon):

This is a case in which a box junction has been placed at a junction between a private driveway and a road. The appeal was allowed. The junction above, Ealing Village, is also a private driveway, and so this case sets an important precedent.

“Second, I find that the box junction in this particular case extends beyond a junction, it appears to extend for some distance in front of the driveway of a private building. Whilst the TSRGD 2016 has relaxed the law in relation to box junctions, such as the need for Departmental approval and to touch the kerb. They did not dispense with the requirement for box junctions to be at junctions (or outside police or fire stations); they cannot be placed anywhere.”


From https://www.londondrinkdrivingsolicitor.co.uk/-What-is-a-road-anyway:

"Mrs Justice Rafferty held in Hallett v DPP that the presence of a sign or barrier lends weight to a claim that the land is open only to a special class of the public and thus that it is not a road to which the public has access."

"The Divisional Court, presided over by Lord Widgery, heard the case of Deacon v AT (A Minor) and concluded that the land must be open to the public in general and not merely a special class of the public, such as residents or visitors."

2.   TfL took 5 months to respond to representations. The adjudicator seems to have ignored the fact that (as quoted on London Tribunals own website: https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/understanding-enforcement-process/moving-traffic-pcn-enforcement-process) "the adjudicators have decided that a Enforcement Authority should normally respond to representations within 3 months." In this case, TfL have given no explanation to justify the undue delay in sending their Notice of Rejection.

MrChips

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Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
« Reply #44 on: June 03, 2024, 05:39:22 pm »
Reads well to me, but I've got no experience in submitting a review application so wait for others to comment.

Just to check, as the video link no longer works.  Was the gate definitely closed when you stopped there? Seems like it's open quite often so wouldn't want you to undermine your case when the video is reviewed.