3. TFL YBJ Code 31 Battersea bridge Rd/ Battersea Church Rd
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TFL YBJ Code 31 Battersea bridge Rd/ Battersea Church Rd
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Hi, All I have received a PCN for stopping in a YBJ. I concede I stopped in a YBJ but I have some points I wish I challenge. I have tried doing some research and if I can have some advice if I have any grounds to appeal due to this would be greatly appreciated :).




  • The YBJ to me is not to code it does not go all the way to the kerb due to it being a red route so a red line follows the curb all the way round. I have requested a FOI with TFL asking for clarification if they have been given a exception by the Transport Secretary. From asking the manager and some googling I do not think they do?. I will post the FOI in this thread when it is given.
    (FOI-2141-2324/GH 13 October deadline)
    (Appeal granted due to the same reason http://www.pepipoo.com/forums/lofiversion/...hp/t53083.html)
  • My PCN has 31 instead of 31J. I Know PCN have been quashed for this but when i have read their code list it states under camera enforcement that a J is not required for PCN so think this is no longer relevant?
    (https://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/download/file/fid/28636)
  • My vision of the YBJ is not good. There is not great vision of the roads away from junction due to the wall and trees. Plus other street furniture. And then the actual YBJ has been placed on a hump so it his is higher than surrounding roads, unfortunately for me I have never driven there before and was doing a left turn and did not see the YBJ until it would have been unsafe for me to brake suddenly.
  • When I have spoken to TFL for requesting the CCTV the first two times the employees were evasive and denied me being able to hold the PCN until I have my evidence. It was not until a 3rd call a week later after seeing posts on here saying it will be paused whilst you wait. The 3rd call the employee was more helpful but I was insistent of it being put on Hold. I also spoken to the manager afterwards to complain about the previous calls. I requested a copy of my calls from the manager. My point for this is it seems like TFL are purposefully denying you support, as they know the less time you have to consider your options you are more likely to panic and pay the reduced fee.




I Receive my PCN on the 15th of Sep 2023 and Received the CCTV on the 4th Oct 2023. I have been told it is still on hold but they do not give me a date it will come of hold for the discount. Other than I need to have my submitted my appeal before the 28 days are up. I am sorry if this is not a lot of time for you to help me but I didn't want to post without having the CCTV and was hopeful the FOI would have been completed by now but that is not looking hopeful. 


So the CD I received only contains the CCTV of my PCN. But I was supposed to receive a copy of the calls also. The man said the case is on hold until I receive both, but I have to still appeal within the 28 days if it does not. Is this true as I think if they do no supply the correct items within the time then how is the PCN still valid?




I am the Blue Fiesta







https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4788591,-0....i8192?entry=ttu




https://imgur.com/a/cdNvcil


Thanks again this forum has been so useful to me! to help me even want to attempt to appeal. I have think I have included everything you require let me know if you need anything else.





« Last Edit: October 05, 2023, 10:05:23 pm by YBJnoMore »
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Re: TFL YBJ Code 31 Battersea bridge Rd/ Battersea Church Rd
« Reply #1 on: »
If the video is coming soon, I'll hold off commenting until that's made available.
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Re: TFL YBJ Code 31 Battersea bridge Rd/ Battersea Church Rd
« Reply #2 on: »
Hi apologies for the delay I have added the YouTube link to my post.
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Re: TFL YBJ Code 31 Battersea bridge Rd/ Battersea Church Rd
« Reply #3 on: »
I'm not sure any of the arguments you put forward have any merit unfortunately, although happy to be proved wrong.

Couple of things I spotted from the video which might have more weight.

The PCN states you committed the offence at 1726 whereas actually it must have been no later than 1725 (the offence takes place at the point of entry).

We can't say absolutely when you entered as that moment happens off screen which is also a potential winner for you as usually adjudicators require the moment of entry to be featured in the evidence.  In this instance you can probably infer the point of entry which they may deem sufficient to condemn you.
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Re: TFL YBJ Code 31 Battersea bridge Rd/ Battersea Church Rd
« Reply #4 on: »
Hi, so my point mainly being about the YBJ not being to code I thought was a strong argument considering there has been previous appeals allowed due to the YBJ not touching the kerb. Have recent rulings not allowed appeals due to this?, why do you think that does not have any merit?


I accept the others are more subjective and I don't know if the code is incorrect as I read Code list. But same with that is appeals have been given for that also.

 
Thanks for pointing out the time I didn't even notice that. I thought like you mention and similar to having to have the correct code that all information on a PCN has to be correct.


I am still waiting for the call logs so I will ring them over this as the 28 days is coming up very soon. I hope someone like you say may hopefully know anything else, or can clarify if the box is to code so that I can maybe raise in my Appeal.


Once Again thanks to all for your time and this forum!




Edit: I have managed to look on https://www.dft.gov.uk/traffic-auths/ and I am certain that there is not an exception so at least the FOI is not needed to know this.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2023, 08:43:59 pm by YBJnoMore »
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Re: TFL YBJ Code 31 Battersea bridge Rd/ Battersea Church Rd
« Reply #5 on: »
Here is the GSV satellite view of the YBJ. 
https://maps.app.goo.gl/qm67F5ALjXQcHTzT7

Although the box is strictly speaking extended beyond the junction, it ends where the curve of the kerbstones ends, so I am not convince at all that this is a strong appeal point. IMHO you are on stronger ground with the argument put forward by Mr Chips, namely the video does not show your point of entry into the box  However, it does show you following the car in front very closely, so it looks as if you took a chance and it didn't pay off.  Sorry to be so negative, but I'm only trying to look with an adjudicators mind at the video, as it is the sole evidence. I think if you won at London Tribunals you'd be lucky, but see what the others say.

This YBJ must be a nice little earner for TfL, because back before your car in the video a black and grey Mini stopped in the same place !
« Last Edit: October 07, 2023, 04:43:17 pm by cp8759 »
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Re: TFL YBJ Code 31 Battersea bridge Rd/ Battersea Church Rd
« Reply #6 on: »
Yeah I will admit I didn't help myself haha, Just not even being from London and how the traffic flowed then stopped so suddenly with me not being to see it was YBJ until very late. I agree not being captured is a strong argument and since I have seen appeals allowed due to this. And Sorry If I was not clear, I do not mean the box is longer than it should be. What I am saying is that the Red Route line continues around the kerb. But under the Traffic Sign Regulations. The YBJ has to meet the kerb, as there has been multiple other Appeals allowed due to this in the Battersea area due to the Red Route. I seen someone say the TFL said they cant have the box to code because of the Red Route.


"Transport for London had argued that the reason that the YBJ at that junction was non-compliant was because of the presence of a red route at that junction which had double red lines drawn. In its letter rejecting my appeal TfL had said, "TfL has deemed it practical to not draw the yellow box marking above the double red lines or vice versa, as this will further create complication with the 2 road marks." That is from the Pepipoo page I linked in post.


2 Cases of the similar also.. I am finding it hard see how a PCN can be valid with a YBJ to my understanding not to code, with appeals given before.? Maybe I am just being stupid and missing something lol


https://londontribunals.org.uk/ords/pwslive/f?p=14952:70::INITIALISE::70:P70_CAS_REFNO,P70_PCN_REFNO,P70_RETURN_PAGE,P70_AST_CODE:908644,1007609,60,APPEAL&cs=37-qb5Dxw7dZEgkr-qogb8rp9fIAfVqygPI8zcf5_u-tL3KpPjOcJrA139UK567-wxa5c8b40zFkP1Ac5M7ZVeA


https://londontribunals.org.uk/ords/pwslive/f?p=14952:70::INITIALISE::70:P70_CAS_REFNO,P70_PCN_REFNO,P70_RETURN_PAGE,P70_AST_CODE:915500,1005905,60,APPEAL&cs=3PAioExs77pe9kgcuCW-pC7GB0wNQsIvMdWnjH6jMS4FwHhfI8NBX0cyC_JZmqVIdwPZh19I8GmMK1kOajIbPJw


« Last Edit: October 07, 2023, 12:32:40 am by YBJnoMore »
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Re: TFL YBJ Code 31 Battersea bridge Rd/ Battersea Church Rd
« Reply #7 on: »
Clearly you've done your homework on this, but I'm not onvinced you've got anywhere near a winning argument, I would think almost no YBJs in London are compliant in terms of perfection and complete compliance with the TSRGD.

Anyway, it's your money so go for a punt with London Tribunals if you like a double-or-quits gamble.
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Re: TFL YBJ Code 31 Battersea bridge Rd/ Battersea Church Rd
« Reply #8 on: »
Well the video doesn't show the point of entry, which is your strongest point. Many adjudicators won't accept a contravention is made out without the point of entry being caught on camera.

You need to get a representation in as you're nearing the end of the 28 days, you must submit something by midnight on 12 October.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: TFL YBJ Code 31 Battersea bridge Rd/ Battersea Church Rd
« Reply #9 on: »
Thanks for all the Advice! So for my representation.. What should I include, I will put in stating about the point of entry not being shown as I agree it is my strongest point.. should I mention about anything else, will it weaken my case or can it help TFL decide there's too many points for Adjudicator to lean to TFL favour, so they decide not to contest the appeal? Also I know that they have to give a reply to the points on the appeal and if they do not and give a generic reply that can also help cant it.

And yeah many boxes probably are not but as the tribunals are not binding and it seems like rulings don't require them to change they can just fine people to no risk to them.. and if they loose the very low percentage to appeals its nothing to the millions they make.

I have the call logs now also, I presume there's no need for them?

Thanks

Ryan
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Re: TFL YBJ Code 31 Battersea bridge Rd/ Battersea Church Rd
« Reply #10 on: »
You might find this PATAS (now London Tribunals) appeal useful. Adjudicator Carl Teper allowed the appeal on a YBJ offence in large part because the video did not show the entire driving of the car into and out of the YBJ. He said "I find this to be a serious omission".  I understand in your case the CCTV does not show you entering the YBJ.

https://londontribunals.org.uk/ords/pwslive/f?p=14952:70::INITIALISE::70:P70_CAS_REFNO,P70_PCN_REFNO,P70_RETURN_PAGE,P70_AST_CODE:1088951,1136344,60,APPEAL&cs=3BaWuJ7V72DRQ0gtNejEAH8C5_7BpCFbZLXv5Q1OvC-BdYMI2z7B4xFJw4X6WAPFNzhyU1y7XlvLuRKlDGRaMGQ

The case reference is 2130491073
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Re: TFL YBJ Code 31 Battersea bridge Rd/ Battersea Church Rd
« Reply #11 on: »
Chaseman linking to tribunal decisions like that doesn't work, so I've put a working link here.

YBJnoMore I suggest you post a draft representation based on what's been said above and we'll tidy it up for you.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: TFL YBJ Code 31 Battersea bridge Rd/ Battersea Church Rd
« Reply #12 on: »
Many thanks cp, I was slightly unsure whether the link would work and hence quoted the case ref. Hope it helps OP.
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Re: TFL YBJ Code 31 Battersea bridge Rd/ Battersea Church Rd
« Reply #13 on: »
Here is my draft, I have included all points that are not subjective. Thanks Again everyone! :)


Dear Sir/Madam
Ref: PCN Number: GX09900630

My grounds of my appeal are that:
The contravention alleged by the Authority on the Penalty Charge Notice did not occur.

1. Paragraph 7(1) of Part II of Schedule 19 to the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 provides
that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter a box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction
due to the presence of stationary vehicle. The councils evidence does not show my vehicle entering the Yellow Box Junction. And the offence is completed at entry of the YBJ which is not shown. London Tribunal case 2130491073, 2160264616, 2230099245

2. The top left hand corner of the box does not meet the kerb line. In the absence of any special authorisation that this box is compliant with either diagram 1043 or 1044 of The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002. Therefor this PCN is unenforceable. London Tribunal case: 2110069641, 2110138201

3. The PCN states I committed the offence at 17:26 whereas actually it must have been no later than 17:25, But this cannot be verified due to my entry not being on the CCTV.

4. The PCN states contravention code 31. However this is captured on CCTV so the code should be 31J. 

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Re: TFL YBJ Code 31 Battersea bridge Rd/ Battersea Church Rd
« Reply #14 on: »
I got my FOI Back. And they have done it for the wrong junction! And the FOI website is down it seems. I will post it here anyways, if anyone knows the junction it may be use for someone else haha.

Our ref: FOI-2141-2324/GH

Thank you for your request received by Transport for London (TfL) on 18 September 2023 asking for information about the yellow box Junction Battersea Bridge/ Battersea Church Road.

Your request has been considered under the requirements of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 and our information access policy. I can confirm that we do hold the information you require.

1. Does this yellow box junction have an exemption from the Secretary of State for Transport, for the yellow box not to touch the kerb.

This yellow box junction (YBJ) has been authorised for use by the Department for Transport (DfT) as per The Traffic, Signs, Regulations and General Directions (TSRGD) 2016. The purpose of yellow box junctions are to keep traffic flowing and we can confirm that this box junction is fully compliant with the TSRGD 2016.

2. Do you have a report detailing the visibility of the YBJ, considering the street furniture and also how the YBJ is raised from surrounding roads.

The YBJ is marked on the road according to the requirements of TSRGD 2016.

3. Can your provide a list of all the Contravention codes for PCNs and one’s issued using different evidence.

The contravention code for a YBJ contravention is 31

4. Was denied.

5. Can you provide most recent pictures showing the layout of the junction.

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« Last Edit: October 09, 2023, 03:17:06 pm by YBJnoMore »
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