Author Topic: TFL RIDICULOUS FINES  (Read 1136 times)

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TFL RIDICULOUS FINES
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Hello   I will try and be fast.
We went to London in our American Motorhome   it is down as a private HGV on the logbook as its weight is around 11 ton.
We went to Abbey Wood campsite what is i believe a few miles inside the ulez area.
We did not see any signs really   this may be because driving a left hand drive American Motorhome you have to concentrate quite a lot because of the size and steering wheel on the wrong size and we were trying to follow the sat nav.
We got to the site left the Motorhome there the 3 days and used the trains for our trios out.  We left and maybe 2 weeks later received 2 letters at the same time..both were for £1000 fines for entering and leaving London..obviously we were horrified at this ridiculous amount and called TFL and were told our motorhome should have been £300 to enter and £300 to leave London  but because we forgot it was 2 x £1000 and if not paid within 28 days. They would be 2 x £2000 so £4000 !!!   We appealed and sent all evidence in mainly saying we didn't see signs and we had looked on 2 website sites to see if our vehicle registration needed to pay anything but both just came up UNAVAILABLE so we thought it must be exempt..
But they have basically classed it as an old hgv because on the logbook it has no Euro status...we have contacted dvla and they needed proof from a manufacturer before they could change a logbook    we have contacted winnebago  then freightliner then caterpillar  then caterpillar UK etc  but had no success as of yet.  But we have lost the case but when we first contested it they told us the fine would not increase while this process was ongoing   but now we lost both fines are now the normal £2000 each and not the reduced if paid within the 28 days. When we questioned this  they said because we contested it   it then goes to the original fines....SO we are now left with them being not interested and just demanding we need to pay the £4000 !!!
We had 14 days to pay what has just expired as we are again onto an American company trying to still get proof our motorhome should be classed as euro 6 maybe as every year on the MOT Our emissions are lower than most cars  0.37  K(1/m)  this should make it a lot less but TFL  DVLA etc will not use these figures..
We only pay about £170 a year road tax too.
But any help is greatly appreciated as I don't want to pay these anything but the wife is extremely worried about it going up and up and bailiffs knocking etc.
Thank you 

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Re: TFL RIDICULOUS FINES
« Reply #1 on: »
I'm confused.

Do you have one or two PCNs?
One appears to have been appealed to the Adjudicator. Please post up the case number?
What about the second PCN, was that appealed to the Adjudicator? If so what is the case number?

Do you believe the Winnebago to be LEZ (Low Emission Zone) compliant? And that this is a registration error by the DVLA?

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

OK! After a bit of digging I've found your cases, see below. Both have been lost at Adjudication. That's normally the end of the road unless you have very deep pockets to seek judicial review in the High Court and it looks like you're too late for that. In any event it seems to me that it's unlikely that a 2006 diesel truck, albeit a motorhome, is Euro VI compliant.

I'm at a loss for anything positive to suggest other than to make an offer to TFL.

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London Tribunals Road User Charging Adjudicators
Back
RUCA Register of Appeals
Register Kept Under Section 21 of the Schedule to the Road User Charging (Enforcement and Adjudication)(London) Regulations 2001
Case Details
Case reference   9240527524
Appellant   Gary Rothwell
Authority   Transport for London
VRM   X444FUN
PCN Details
PCN   LZ42740808
Contravention date   17 Aug 2024
Contravention time   11:41:23
Contravention location   Northend Road
Penalty amount   GBP 2000.00
Contravention   Failure to pay charge for Low Emission Zone
Referral date   -
Decision Date   14 Jan 2025
Adjudicator   Lale Hussein-Venn
Appeal decision   Appeal refused
Direction   Full penalty charge notice amount stated to be paid within 28 days.
Reasons   
Adjudicator's Reasons





Introduction
1. This is an appeal by Mr Gary Rothwell against two Low Emission Zone (LEZ) penalty charge notices imposed by Transport for London [TfL] relating to travel on 17 and 20 August 2024.
2. This appeal was decided on the papers, as a postal appeal in accordance with the Appellant's preference.

The Law
3. The relevant law is set out in the Greater London Low Emission Zone Charging Order 2006 as amended and the available grounds of appeal are set out in Regulation 13(3) of the Road User Charging (Enforcement and Adjudication) (London) Regulations 2001, as amended. I can only allow an appeal if one of these grounds has been established.
4. The appeal is a two-stage process. TfL must first prove that there may have been a 'contravention' of the Scheme. If I am satisfied that there has been a contravention, it is then for the Appellant to prove, on the balance of probabilities, that one of the statutory grounds of appeal has been established.
5. Although TfL are permitted to take mitigating circumstances into account when considering representations, I am not permitted to do so when deciding an appeal. This was confirmed by the Court of Appeal in the case of Walmsley v TfL & Others [2005] EWCA Civ 1540.

The Grounds of Appeal
6. The Appellant seeks to rely on the ground that the penalty charge exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case. I have, however, considered all six grounds of appeal set out within the 2001 regulations.

The Appellant's Case
7. The Appellant says that his vehicle is a motorhome, not a converted truck, that he checked whether he would need to pay any daily charges for it but the DVLA’s website said ‘ULEZ status unavailable’ and that the vehicle is a low emissions vehicle and he is awaiting confirmation from the manufacturer to support this. He also says he was unaware he needed to pay anything in respect of his use of the LEZ and that the sum TfL are seeking in respect of the PCNs is unreasonable.

8. The Appellant asks to pay £35 for each date of entry into the LEZ, which he says is representative of the daily charge for a low emissions truck instead of the PCN amounts TfL are seeking. In addition, the Appellant says he did not see any signs to support he was entering the LEZ.


Transport for London's Case
9. TfL say the vehicle was photographed using the zone on two occasions and they have no record of the daily charge having been paid and so they say contraventions occurred.

10. It is also TfL's case that the vehicle is a type N2 vehicle using diesel fuel and it was manufactured in 20006. Under the Low Emission Scheme, it is only registered keepers of diesel fuel vehicles of type N2 that have an emission standard of Euro 6 or above who are not required to pay the daily charge. The vehicle was manufactured before the said emission standard was introduced and that being so, its emissions would not have met that standard. Therefore, TfL contend that the vehicle was not compliant with the scheme and there was a liability to pay the daily charge to avoid a penalty.

11. TfL also say that there are signs along the boundary to the LEZ to provide advance warning on all approaches to the zone allowing motorists an opportunity to take an alternative route, thereby avoiding travel into it.

Findings of Fact and Decision
12. I am satisfied, based on TfL's evidence, that the vehicle is classified as an N2 vehicle, and by virtue of its age and weight, I think it’s likely that it did not meet the required emission standard so there was a liability under the Scheme to pay a daily charge under the LEZ. And whilst I accept it’s quite possible that this vehicle might have lower emissions than is usual for its age and weight, the Appellant hasn’t provided any evidence to support this from the manufacturer at the date of his appeal. As such I can’t accept, based on the evidence he has supplied, that the emissions for this vehicle are lower than the emissions that are common for a vehicle of its age and weight.
13. I accept TfL's evidence that the Appellant was the registered keeper of the vehicle and that it was used in the zone on the relevant dates without payment of the daily charge. As such I find that contraventions occurred.
14. The relevant scheme in this case is the Low Emission scheme and not the Ultra-low Emission scheme. They are two completely separate schemes and TfL set out full details of the Low Emission scheme in their Case Summary. So the fact that DVLA’s website said that the ‘ULEZ status unavailable’ makes no difference to the outcome of this appeal because it is not relevant here.

15. Although the Appellant's vehicle is a motorhome, given its age and weight, it is caught by the Low Emission scheme. The fact that the Appellant may not have been aware of this, is not a ground of appeal. There is an expectation that a motorist is aware of all the charges that apply to their vehicle. The law imposes strict liability on the registered keeper to pay the charges incurred.

16. Signage for the scheme has been authorised by the Secretary of State for the Department for Transport. I am satisfied that the signage at the entrance of and leading up to the zone is compliant and sufficient to put motorists on notice of the existence of the zone and scheme.

17. The Appellant’s representations amount to mitigation only and, although TfL are permitted to take mitigation into account when considering representations, an Adjudicator is not permitted to do so when deciding an appeal.

18.I refuse the appeal.

Penalty Amount
19. TfL have said that the time to pay the discounted rate for the PCNs has now expired and as such the sum payable for each amounts to £2,000 per PCN, which totals £4,000. This sum must be paid and received by TfL within 28 days.

20. The amount payable is determined by TfL, and I have no discretion to vary the amount.

21. Adjudicators have no power to reduce the amount of a PCN or to accept payments in instalments. Any arrangement regarding the payment of the PCN is a matter between the appellant and TfL.


PCN   LZ42752567
Contravention date   20 Aug 2024
Contravention time   11:18:27
Contravention location   Harrow Manorway
Penalty amount   GBP 2000.00
Contravention   Failure to pay charge for Low Emission Zone
Referral date   -
Decision Date   14 Jan 2025
Adjudicator   Lale Hussein-Venn
Appeal decision   Appeal refused
Direction   Full penalty charge notice amount stated to be paid within 28 days.
Reasons   
Adjudicator's Reasons





Introduction
1. This is an appeal by Mr Gary Rothwell against two Low Emission Zone (LEZ) penalty charge notices imposed by Transport for London [TfL] relating to travel on 17 and 20 August 2024.
2. This appeal was decided on the papers, as a postal appeal in accordance with the Appellant's preference.

The Law
3. The relevant law is set out in the Greater London Low Emission Zone Charging Order 2006 as amended and the available grounds of appeal are set out in Regulation 13(3) of the Road User Charging (Enforcement and Adjudication) (London) Regulations 2001, as amended. I can only allow an appeal if one of these grounds has been established.
4. The appeal is a two-stage process. TfL must first prove that there may have been a 'contravention' of the Scheme. If I am satisfied that there has been a contravention, it is then for the Appellant to prove, on the balance of probabilities, that one of the statutory grounds of appeal has been established.
5. Although TfL are permitted to take mitigating circumstances into account when considering representations, I am not permitted to do so when deciding an appeal. This was confirmed by the Court of Appeal in the case of Walmsley v TfL & Others [2005] EWCA Civ 1540.

The Grounds of Appeal
6. The Appellant seeks to rely on the ground that the penalty charge exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case. I have, however, considered all six grounds of appeal set out within the 2001 regulations.

The Appellant's Case
7. The Appellant says that his vehicle is a motorhome, not a converted truck, that he checked whether he would need to pay any daily charges for it but the DVLA’s website said ‘ULEZ status unavailable’ and that the vehicle is a low emissions vehicle and he is awaiting confirmation from the manufacturer to support this. He also says he was unaware he needed to pay anything in respect of his use of the LEZ and that the sum TfL are seeking in respect of the PCNs is unreasonable.

8. The Appellant asks to pay £35 for each date of entry into the LEZ, which he says is representative of the daily charge for a low emissions truck instead of the PCN amounts TfL are seeking. In addition, the Appellant says he did not see any signs to support he was entering the LEZ.


Transport for London's Case
9. TfL say the vehicle was photographed using the zone on two occasions and they have no record of the daily charge having been paid and so they say contraventions occurred.

10. It is also TfL's case that the vehicle is a type N2 vehicle using diesel fuel and it was manufactured in 20006. Under the Low Emission Scheme, it is only registered keepers of diesel fuel vehicles of type N2 that have an emission standard of Euro 6 or above who are not required to pay the daily charge. The vehicle was manufactured before the said emission standard was introduced and that being so, its emissions would not have met that standard. Therefore, TfL contend that the vehicle was not compliant with the scheme and there was a liability to pay the daily charge to avoid a penalty.

11. TfL also say that there are signs along the boundary to the LEZ to provide advance warning on all approaches to the zone allowing motorists an opportunity to take an alternative route, thereby avoiding travel into it.

Findings of Fact and Decision
12. I am satisfied, based on TfL's evidence, that the vehicle is classified as an N2 vehicle, and by virtue of its age and weight, I think it’s likely that it did not meet the required emission standard so there was a liability under the Scheme to pay a daily charge under the LEZ. And whilst I accept it’s quite possible that this vehicle might have lower emissions than is usual for its age and weight, the Appellant hasn’t provided any evidence to support this from the manufacturer at the date of his appeal. As such I can’t accept, based on the evidence he has supplied, that the emissions for this vehicle are lower than the emissions that are common for a vehicle of its age and weight.
13. I accept TfL's evidence that the Appellant was the registered keeper of the vehicle and that it was used in the zone on the relevant dates without payment of the daily charge. As such I find that contraventions occurred.
14. The relevant scheme in this case is the Low Emission scheme and not the Ultra-low Emission scheme. They are two completely separate schemes and TfL set out full details of the Low Emission scheme in their Case Summary. So the fact that DVLA’s website said that the ‘ULEZ status unavailable’ makes no difference to the outcome of this appeal because it is not relevant here.

15. Although the Appellant's vehicle is a motorhome, given its age and weight, it is caught by the Low Emission scheme. The fact that the Appellant may not have been aware of this, is not a ground of appeal. There is an expectation that a motorist is aware of all the charges that apply to their vehicle. The law imposes strict liability on the registered keeper to pay the charges incurred.

16. Signage for the scheme has been authorised by the Secretary of State for the Department for Transport. I am satisfied that the signage at the entrance of and leading up to the zone is compliant and sufficient to put motorists on notice of the existence of the zone and scheme.

17. The Appellant’s representations amount to mitigation only and, although TfL are permitted to take mitigation into account when considering representations, an Adjudicator is not permitted to do so when deciding an appeal.

18.I refuse the appeal.

Penalty Amount
19. TfL have said that the time to pay the discounted rate for the PCNs has now expired and as such the sum payable for each amounts to £2,000 per PCN, which totals £4,000. This sum must be paid and received by TfL within 28 days.

20. The amount payable is determined by TfL, and I have no discretion to vary the amount.

21. Adjudicators have no power to reduce the amount of a PCN or to accept payments in instalments. Any arrangement regarding the payment of the PCN is a matter between the appellant and TfL.

« Last Edit: January 29, 2025, 09:45:00 pm by Enceladus »

Re: TFL RIDICULOUS FINES
« Reply #2 on: »
It seems to me the OP has either been very naive, or very badly informed when he purchased an 11 tonne American diesel-powered vehicle and expected to drive into London almost unrestricted.  11 tonnes means the vehicle is within the Heavy Goods Vehicle weight range, and this starts at 3.5 tonnes.  Did nobody tell him about the London Emission Zone ?

Anyway, here is the list of vehicles included in the scheme, and motor caravans are on it.
https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/low-emission-zone/lorries-vans-buses-and-coaches

Re: TFL RIDICULOUS FINES
« Reply #3 on: »
If you don't pay, it gets even more horrendous as you'll get charge certificates increasing each PCN by 50%  to £3000 after 28 days.

The bailiffs can only add £75 for each PCN = £150 and then £235 for a visit to try and enforce the debt so small beer in comparison.

I would call TFL and try and negotiate.

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Re: TFL RIDICULOUS FINES
« Reply #4 on: »
One problem here is that the OP originally posted on an anti-ULEZ Facebook group and I directed him to here for better advice that "just ignore it", "don't pay, it's illegal" remarks. Some of the people there are extreme in their views, others misguided. Some of the actions and views I share as it happens, but also have to look at the practical side of life at times. Had the Winnebago been more than 40 years old, it would have been considered a historic vehicle and therefore ULEZ/LEZ exempt!
Bus driving since 1973. My advice, if you have a PSV licence, destroy it when you get to 65 or you'll be forever in demand.

Re: TFL RIDICULOUS FINES
« Reply #5 on: »
OP, you posted:

We appealed and sent all evidence in mainly saying we didn't see signs and we had looked on 2 website sites to see if our vehicle registration needed to pay anything but both just came up UNAVAILABLE so we thought it must be exempt..

I don't know what websites, but TfL's LEZ vehicle checker shows that your VRM incurs a charge of £300 p.d. As you knew enough to check, IMO this rather undermines any assertion that you were unaware by virtue of improper signage which was the other main plank of your argument.


https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/check-your-vehicle/Results

But what's done is done although the adjudicator's finding of fact [As such I can’t accept, based on the evidence he has supplied, that the emissions for this vehicle are lower than the emissions that are common for a vehicle of its age and weight.] might still leave the door ajar if you could prove to TfL that your vehicle is exempt.

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Re: TFL RIDICULOUS FINES
« Reply #6 on: »
Indeed the adjudication is not satisfactory in that the finding is on likelihood not fact.

I see that one can't compare heavy vehicles with cars and vans - maybe this is an angle:
"The emission standards for trucks and buses are defined by engine energy output in g/kWh; this is unlike the emission standards for passenger cars and light commercial vehicles, which are defined by vehicle driving distance in g/km."

I expect TFL will accept a deal - probably the £1000 discounted penalty for each. We don't see many LEZ cases as most are industrial. I can only recall some concerning foreign vehicles that were unenforceable.

It's reasonable to ask what happens if you don't pay. It's not certain that TFL instructs bailiffs for all unpaid PCNs but you have to assume they do. A large motorhome is probably very valuable and not something you can hide easily from being clamped, not to mention other vehicles the OP may have.

Re: TFL RIDICULOUS FINES
« Reply #7 on: »
Indeed the adjudication is not satisfactory in that the finding is on likelihood not fact.

I see that one can't compare heavy vehicles with cars and vans - maybe this is an angle:
"The emission standards for trucks and buses are defined by engine energy output in g/kWh; this is unlike the emission standards for passenger cars and light commercial vehicles, which are defined by vehicle driving distance in g/km."

I expect TFL will accept a deal - probably the £1000 discounted penalty for each. We don't see many LEZ cases as most are industrial. I can only recall some concerning foreign vehicles that were unenforceable.

It's reasonable to ask what happens if you don't pay. It's not certain that TFL instructs bailiffs for all unpaid PCNs but you have to assume they do. A large motorhome is probably very valuable and not something you can hide easily from being clamped, not to mention other vehicles the OP may have.
Decision date 14th January, which means the period to request a review has passed, I think. Maybe worth seeing if they will accept a request.
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Re: TFL RIDICULOUS FINES
« Reply #8 on: »
@Rothwell
did you not see the whole section warning about Abbey Wood being in the ulez zone on their website?
Quote from: andy_foster
Mick, you are a very, very bad man

Re: TFL RIDICULOUS FINES
« Reply #9 on: »
@Rothwell
did you not see the whole section warning about Abbey Wood being in the ulez zone on their website?
These PCNs concern the LEZ, London Low Emission Zone, which has been around for a while as opposed to the later (expanded) ULEZ, London Ultra Low Emission Zone. The ULEZ concerns cars, motorcycles and vans. The LEZ mainly concerns HGVs and buses and larger motorhomes.

From the Adjudicator's decision it is evident that the OP misunderstood the distinction and that the Winnebago was subject to the LEZ boundaries and regulations.
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Re: TFL RIDICULOUS FINES
« Reply #10 on: »
OK went by the OPs description.

@Rothwell
has the vehicle had any type of euro to euro conversion such as SCR ?
does it a fluid tank to refill such as the controversial, (ask a citroen peugeot owner) Adblue?
did you get a "certificate of conformity" with it when you bought it?
Quote from: andy_foster
Mick, you are a very, very bad man

Re: TFL RIDICULOUS FINES
« Reply #11 on: »
@Rothwell
did you not see the whole section warning about Abbey Wood being in the ulez zone on their website?
These PCNs concern the LEZ, London Low Emission Zone, which has been around for a while as opposed to the later (expanded) ULEZ, London Ultra Low Emission Zone. The ULEZ concerns cars, motorcycles and vans. The LEZ mainly concerns HGVs and buses and larger motorhomes.

From the Adjudicator's decision it is evident that the OP misunderstood the distinction and that the Winnebago was subject to the LEZ boundaries and regulations.

The website for the Abbey Wood campsite does actually refer to the LEZ, rather than the ULEZ. And contains a link to the TFL checker and advice on how to pay:
Quote
Please note: this Club campsite is situated within the London Low Emission Zone (LEZ) which means you may need to pay a fee based on your vehicle's emissions, age and weight. The best way to find out is to use the Transport for London Low Emission Zone Checker. To avoid any late payment penalties, it's best to set up an Auto Pay account before you travel and then the appropriate payment is taken automatically when you drive into the zone.

Re: TFL RIDICULOUS FINES
« Reply #12 on: »
Sorry  I have seen comments and could not reply   only just realised I hadn't logged in and needed too.  My wife dealt with the campsite etc   and as you can see   I'm not great at computer stuff..but yes  I agree  if I would have dug deeper   I would have found the TFL site and not the ones I used when we actually stopped at a services on the way there.  But I am not arguing we did or did not..my main problem   is the ridiculous prices they are charging for my type of motorhome   the emissions are very low   but £300 to enter and £300 to leave is scandalous   how could someone who actually lives in the area pay that every time they wanted to go anywhere   but the other point is the fines £1000 each for not paying !!! And £2000 if not paid within 28 days...then us appealing it within the 28 days and being told the fines would not escalate until the outcome   then get the refusal letter and then being the £2000 each so £4000 because we had asked for an appeal !!  This is all just plain daylight robbery and I don't think there would be many people who would think this is fair apart from the thieves working for TFL

Re: TFL RIDICULOUS FINES
« Reply #13 on: »
The scheme is predicated on the expectation that almost all PCNs under LEZ will be commercial firms operating HGVs and LGVs, who can put it all down as a cost of doing business in London. Of course, these are absolutely massive fines for normal people, so I would be contacting TfL to explain that you are not a company but a private individual, and am prepared to pay something, but consider that the amount being demanded is totally unreasonable. What more can one say ?
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Re: TFL RIDICULOUS FINES
« Reply #14 on: »
OP, more than one poster has advised that you contact TfL.

But you need to couch this in terms other than 'thieves', 'daylight robbery' etc.
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