3. TFL redroute -Enfield, Silver St -Code 31 Box Junction
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Fazzy

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TFL redroute -Enfield, Silver St -Code 31 Box Junction
« on: April 23, 2024, 12:39:06 pm »
Hi all,

I've received this PCN.



There's only 3 pics -no video - timestamped 16.45.16, 16.45.20 and 16.45.28 - so very close together showing  my car within the box junction with plenty of space in the front and back so I'm not sure what the circumstance was at the time. Can I request for video evidence to see if I was actually waiting or if I was blocked by the drivers swerving in from Victoria road? The camera must be relatively new instalment and I'm not sure if it's legally up to scratch?

Any advice would be appreciated.

Pic: https://imgur.com/a/27N5p3V

Google map:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/q8UzSFxMnRxLjJqZ7
« Last Edit: April 23, 2024, 12:40:40 pm by Fazzy »
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Incandescent

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Re: TFL redroute -Enfield, Silver St -Code 31 Box Junction
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2024, 02:34:13 pm »
YBJ cases hinge on the video.
TfL are in the dark ages, so you have to ring them up and ask them to send the video, which will be a DVD. When you get it, post the video on here.
Be aware that whilst TfL will tell you the case has bee put on hold, its only on hold until they send it, not you receiving it, so keep your eye on the PCN deadline to pay or submit representations. If it starts to get close, without the DVD arriving, contact them again.

The photos you have got are frames from the video. There are certain things we look out for on the video, so can't really advise until we've seen it.
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Fazzy

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Re: TFL redroute -Enfield, Silver St -Code 31 Box Junction
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2024, 03:20:19 pm »
Thank you. Requested. They’ve put a hold for 14 days and asked me to call back if it’s not received by that time. I’ll update once I receive it.
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Fazzy

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Re: TFL redroute -Enfield, Silver St -Code 31 Box Junction
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2024, 04:21:27 pm »
I've received the DVD and managed to find an ancient laptop to view it on. The full video was 5 minutes long but i'm posting from 16.44 when my car enters till it goes out of view. I can post the full video if necessary.

I cant see what's happening up ahead but it seems like its my mistake. It must be combination of carelessness as this was a box junction not previously ticketing plus the distraction up ahead. The road leads to turning left towards fore street and turning right towards North Circular and it can get a bit chaotic as cars from Victoria Road jump in.

Is there anything that can be seen from the video that is appeal worthy? Please let me know.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/saj4a1z36iqt0xm5bpbjd/IMG_5997.MOV?rlkey=far77xfai9adcnmmann3ano0t&e=1&st=chr6zmww&dl=0
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Incandescent

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Re: TFL redroute -Enfield, Silver St -Code 31 Box Junction
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2024, 07:57:45 pm »
It's a typical money-grubbing PCN we see so often nowadays which has no traffic management purpose whatsoever.

Having said that, this won't get the PCN cancelled !  The intrusion into the box is not great, and I suppose you could say you realised you would not get across the box without stopping, so stopped and thought you were clear of the box.  Obviously the video shows you wern't clear, but you did recognise the yellow box and acted accordingly, and would ask the PCN be cancelled on this occasion.

There may, of course, be a "technical" defence to the PCN, so wait a bit until others have responded, but don't miss the deadline for paying or submitting representations.
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cp8759

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Re: TFL redroute -Enfield, Silver St -Code 31 Box Junction
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2024, 12:14:41 am »
@Fazzy well The GLA Roads (No.3) Designation Order 2008 does not make Silver Street a GLA road, and as far as I can work out The GLA Side Roads (London Borough of Enfield) Designation Order 2000 doesn't either (at least not the relevant part of Silver Street).

That being said all the original side road designation orders have been replaced by newer orders made by the Mayor of London, so I'll request the latest version from TFL.

In the meantime put in a representation saying the contravention is de-minimis just to buy us some time, as long as the representation is made by  1st May this will preserve the discount.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
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cp8759

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Re: TFL redroute -Enfield, Silver St -Code 31 Box Junction
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2024, 03:32:54 pm »
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Fazzy

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Re: TFL redroute -Enfield, Silver St -Code 31 Box Junction
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2024, 03:38:47 pm »
Yes I did make a representation stating deminimis and request for mercy 😅

GLA side road point is going over my head at the moment. Is there something I’m looking for or suppose to do? Sorry.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2024, 04:49:41 pm by Fazzy »
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cp8759

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Re: TFL redroute -Enfield, Silver St -Code 31 Box Junction
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2024, 07:33:03 pm »
Quote from: Fazzy on May 09, 2024, 03:38:47 pm
Yes I did make a representation stating deminimis and request for mercy 😅

GLA side road point is going over my head at the moment. Is there something I’m looking for or suppose to do? Sorry.
Post up all pages of the notice of rejection when you get it and I'll confirm if there's an arguable appeal or whether it would be best to pay the discount.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

MrChips

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Re: TFL redroute -Enfield, Silver St -Code 31 Box Junction
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2024, 09:43:42 pm »
Slightly tenuous but PCN states contravention at 1645, whereas it occurred at 1644, and it looks like by 1645 the white van was no longer stationary so no offence at this time.
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cp8759

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Re: TFL redroute -Enfield, Silver St -Code 31 Box Junction
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2024, 09:01:52 pm »
I think I'd want to see the actual footage, rather than a screen recording, if I were going to pursue that argument.

@Fazzy can you upload the original mkv file somewhere like youtube or vimeo please?
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Fazzy

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Re: TFL redroute -Enfield, Silver St -Code 31 Box Junction
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2024, 10:57:30 am »
I forgot about this PCN till I received a Charge certificate today. I am on the phone to TFL at the moment - The letter of rejection never reached me.  I've been advised to call Tribunals on 0207 5207200 to see if they will accept a late appeal. if not then I'm to wait for order of recovery and select rejection letter not received to reset.

The lady on the phone read the rejection letter - it stated they cant cancel as they've viewed my car entering at 16.44 till 16.45 while the exit wasn't clear.

@cp8759 - I will try my best to upload the full video on youtube/vimeo. I just have to set up my ancient laptop that supports CDs to be able to do that.

@MrChips - My car was the black Toyota Yaris.
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cp8759

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Re: TFL redroute -Enfield, Silver St -Code 31 Box Junction
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2024, 07:15:06 pm »
@Fazzy nobody who will answer the phone at the tribunal will be able to give you an answer, so don't bother.

I can register an out of time appeal on your behalf, I'll drop you a PM about that.

Failing that, you'll need to follow the process described here: https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/charge-certificates-london-local-authorities-and-tfl-act-2003-london-l-1805/
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Fazzy

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Re: TFL redroute -Enfield, Silver St -Code 31 Box Junction
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2024, 09:50:52 am »
Thank you Cp8759.
 
It allowed me the option to send in out of time challenge on the website so I sent in request for notice of rejection to be resent and tribunal options again. I'm guessing it wont be accepted. In that case I'll follow the charge certificate procedure and reset things. I'm not confident with out of time appeal request as they can be rejected and then I'm stuck so I'd rather go through the above to get it reset and then come back here to appeal to tribunal properly. Thank you for your offer of paid service - I will have to take you up on that if you feel the tribunal win will be not possible myself.   

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cp8759

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Re: TFL redroute -Enfield, Silver St -Code 31 Box Junction
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2024, 07:04:20 pm »
Quote from: Fazzy on June 24, 2024, 09:50:52 am
Thank you Cp8759.
 
It allowed me the option to send in out of time challenge on the website so I sent in request for notice of rejection to be resent and tribunal options again.
@Fazzy I'm not sure what any of this means, TFL PCNs cannot be appealed via the tribunal website?

You also don't need the notice of rejection to appeal, you can just type up a notice of appeal yourself and email it to queries@londontribunals.org.uk but you have to give the PCN details, your full name and address, the date of the notice of rejection, and the reasons why the appeal is out of time.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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