Author Topic: TFL RED ROUTE LOADING BAY - when did they change the signs?  (Read 1523 times)

0 Members and 135 Guests are viewing this topic.

Re: TFL RED ROUTE LOADING BAY - when did they change the signs?
« Reply #15 on: »
The restriction came into effect on 1 Dec. 2023.

IMO, TfL had no power to continue with the 'old' restriction past this point. I would be particularly interested to see whether they present the full order or only extracts, excluding the commencement date.

There is no point in withholding your VRM because this is on view 24/7 when the car's on the road.

You say you've registered an appeal...under which grounds, did you elect for a hearing or determination on the papers and when's the date? 

Re: TFL RED ROUTE LOADING BAY - when did they change the signs?
« Reply #16 on: »
Thank you HC Andersen

I registered the appeal under the 'offence didn't occur' because I hadn't realised the signs/times had changed when I lodged it. I'm a novice at this!

I couldn't find the TMO on the Council's website nor The London Gazette and Google Maps shows the old signs were still up in July 2024.

Re: TFL RED ROUTE LOADING BAY - when did they change the signs?
« Reply #17 on: »
There is no point in withholding your VRM because this is on view 24/7 when the car's on the road.

You say you've registered an appeal...under which grounds, did you elect for a hearing or determination on the papers and when's the date?

Re: TFL RED ROUTE LOADING BAY - when did they change the signs?
« Reply #18 on: »
Hi

I appealed under The Offence did not occur (see previous post). The hearing is in 2 weeks.
Tried uploading the video but it was too big to go through (12MB). I tried to 'compress' but that didn't work. Sorry, I'm not that technical I know how to solve it.


Re: TFL RED ROUTE LOADING BAY - when did they change the signs?
« Reply #20 on: »
Thanks for your help with this. I've now received a large package from TfL in advance of the hearing and it looks like they've covered pretty much everything so I'm losing hope of fighting this. The only thing I still don't have is the date it actually came into force (given I have Google Street View saying it was still the old signs in July 2024). I have actually stopped and warned many drivers of cars and vans, every time I walk past the bay, as no one seems to be aware the signs have changed. They must be making a fortune!
(I'm afraid the tech involved in uploading the video was a little beyond me and my patience. Sorry).

Re: TFL RED ROUTE LOADING BAY - when did they change the signs?
« Reply #21 on: »
We're specifically interested in the traffic order, so as a minimum pl post this as well as their Case Summary.

Re: TFL RED ROUTE LOADING BAY - when did they change the signs?
« Reply #22 on: »
Thank you so much for your patience with me! The Case Summary is 37 pages long! I've attached the first five pages which are the most relevant (the rest is about TSRGD definition of Red Routes and their argument there has been an Error of Law in the Determination of the Panel's decision regarding Regulation 11 and why). If you want the whole lot, I can carry on scanning.

I attach the Traffic Order front page and the relevant page with the parking bay asterisked.

I also attach two photographs they've sent me from the video footage. There was a rubbish truck blocking the sign which I have not yet referred to in my appeal but they mention in the Case Summary that I should have got out the car to read the signs.

I have also now had a response from the Traffic Order section saying the signs came in to force in July 2024 (same as Google Street View date) and that it was published in the London Gazette in September 2023.

Feeling pessimistic.

[ Guests cannot view attachments ]

Re: TFL RED ROUTE LOADING BAY - when did they change the signs?
« Reply #23 on: »
Thanks.

You posted:
I parked briefly in a loading/unloading bay on Tfl Red Route I have used several times to unload items to charity shop next to it. (my emphasis)

TfL agree that despite the order coming into effect on 1 Dec. it was not implemented in respect of this location until 'July 2024' when presumably the signs were changed.

Can you give us any idea of your 'several times' e.g. did you use the bay between Dec. 2023 and July 2024 etc?

Re: TFL RED ROUTE LOADING BAY - when did they change the signs?
« Reply #24 on: »
Yes, I would have done although don't think I could give any specific dates.

Re: TFL RED ROUTE LOADING BAY - when did they change the signs?
« Reply #25 on: »
But you didn't use the bay between July and October?

OP, this is the essence of your appeal given that TfL officers acknowledge ignoring the authority's order and not implementing its provisions when it came into effect.

I can't tell you what to say, but if the facts fit....

I have used the bay since at least ***. I normally/only park here in order to donate items to **** which is an adjacent charity shop.

As can be seen in the attached GSV snapshots, in 2020,2021,2022 and July 2024(although TfL claim to have amended the sign in July 2024) the restriction was: No Stopping except 10am-4pm Loading, max. 20 minutes. I had therefore become familiar with what I was permitted to do and not do.

As the adjudicator will see from TfL's evidence, in December 2023 Transport for London amended the restriction such that 'No Stopping except loading 10am-4pm' became 'except 7pm-7am'. I can only imagine that these changes, which created unsocial hours exemptions, hardly pleased the adjacent shops.

I cannot recall how often I had used the bay prior to 2024, but I can remember using it at least *** between December 2023 and July/Aug 2024 without issue. Therefore, when I used it on 28 October I assumed that the restriction was the same.

But it wasn't. And, as can be seen, not by a marginal amount but fundamentally.

While I accept that in principle a driver should always check signs, I would ask the adjudicator to consider the event dates in this case. Specifically, Transport for London amended the restrictions which came into force on 1 December 2023 and yet for reasons which have not been detailed, officers did not implement these changes until July/August 2024. Therefore, I (and every other motorist) had been parking in technical contravention between 1 Dec. 2023 and July/Aug 2024. Had TfL implemented the changed restrictions when they were obliged to do, then the contravention on 28 October would not have occurred. And if these changes had been brought into effect when legally obliged and implemented with some changeover leeway(given that the previous restriction was in effect for so long) then it is likely that would not be facing a penalty from October 2024. 

I respectfully submit that TfL officers who disregarded their duty to implement the amended order when it came into force should not be allowed to pursue me for this penalty when they decided to do so without, in my case, any prior warning.

Some thoughts! 

But more info from you pl.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2025, 10:58:05 pm by H C Andersen »

Re: TFL RED ROUTE LOADING BAY - when did they change the signs?
« Reply #26 on: »
Thank you again. I definitely feel I can say I’ve loaded/unloaded there between those dates. I’m not sure I trust myself to be able stay all that correctly in front of the solicitor. Do you know if I’m able to swap to a written appeal?

Re: TFL RED ROUTE LOADING BAY - when did they change the signs?
« Reply #27 on: »
A hearing is fairly relaxed although strictly a judicial proceeding. You may elect for a telephone or personal hearing. It is unlikely that the authority would be present and would rely solely on their written submissions - the evidence bundle you've got.

You don't make speeches, you present your case in writing in advance and the adjudicator may ask questions by way of verification/clarification.

Re: TFL RED ROUTE LOADING BAY - when did they change the signs?
« Reply #28 on: »
Thank you again. I will submit in advance. It's been a very very long time since I attended one of these hearings and the process has clearly changed. I really appreciate all your help.

Re: TFL RED ROUTE LOADING BAY - when did they change the signs?
« Reply #29 on: »
Thank you so much for your help. We succeeded in our appeal and I thought it would be useful to let you know the reasons given by the Adjudicator.

1. The newer restriction came into force on 1 December 2023. However, the sign plate did not reflect the  most recent restriction until after July 2024.

2. The newer sign plate was FACING THE ROAD (apparently these signs should be perpendicular to the road so that the driver can see them as they approach - only the yellow ones should be facing the road). I thought this point would be particularly useful for others to know.

3. Because of Point 2, our view of the sign was obscured by a large high sided Authority refuse truck which was also in the loading bay and we could, therefore, not see the sign.