3. TfL red route - largely illegible PCN (thermal paper) & known flaws?
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Re: TfL red route - largely illegible PCN (thermal paper) & known flaws?
« Reply #15 on: »
TfL have rejected informal reps (as is the norm for them).

They really haven't responded properly to any of the points raised in the appeal, and I think there could be a 'failure to consider'-esque argument now.

The rejection letter states an amount due (£80, which is 50% of the full amount) but doesn't say anything about how long this offer is valid for. The text at the bottom of the first page explaining timelines ("28 days from the PCN") is also unclear and quite confusing in the context of a rejection letter.

A complication here is that this is a lease vehicle, and the lease company's annoying policy is to automatically pay up on receipt of an NTO. Can I submit formal reps before an NTO is issued?


« Last Edit: August 30, 2023, 10:04:59 pm by NotFair »
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Re: TfL red route - largely illegible PCN (thermal paper) & known flaws?
« Reply #16 on: »
No, you need to tell the lease company to make representations against the Notice to Owner on the basis that the vehicle was leased to you. What's the name of the lease company?

I can provide some draft wording for you to send to them if that would help.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: TfL red route - largely illegible PCN (thermal paper) & known flaws?
« Reply #17 on: »
That would be helpful, thank you.

Can I oblige the lease company to follow this process?

The lease company is Tusker Direct.
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Re: TfL red route - largely illegible PCN (thermal paper) & known flaws?
« Reply #18 on: »
Here you go:

Dear Tusker Direct,

You will shortly receive a Notice to Owner from Transport for London in respect of PCN GF83565073, I intend to challenge liability for this penalty charge.

When you receive the Notice to Owner please challenge it on the ground that you are a lease company and you have leased the vehicle to me, Transport for London will then cancel your Notice to Owner and issue another one directly to me. With penalties issued by local authorities, payment extinguishes the right to appeal, so you must not pay or you will deprive me of the right to appeal this penalty.

If you ignore this and chose to pay the penalty rather than transfer liability to me, I will consider this to be a self-inflicted loss (as you are not obliged to pay and can transfer liability instead) and as such I will not be reimbursing you.

Please take this as my explicit consent for you to share my details with Transport for London, please feel free to get in touch should you have any queries about this.

Yours faithfully,

If it's a personal lease rather than a business to business one, we can add some other bits around the Consumer Rights Act 2015 (that basically forces their hand).
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: TfL red route - largely illegible PCN (thermal paper) & known flaws?
« Reply #19 on: »
Thanks.

They've advised me of their process - apparently I have to call them as soon as they tell me they've received it, to ask them to transfer liability, instead of pay it.

Is it worth adding anything to the reps already submitted?
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Re: TfL red route - largely illegible PCN (thermal paper) & known flaws?
« Reply #20 on: »
Once you've received the NTO in your own name, call Tusker Direct and ask them to send you:

1) A copy of their representations to TFL,
2) A copy of anything they've since received back from TFL.

The reason why you'd ask for this is evidence if you have a read of Rachid Amrane v London Borough of Harrow (2190142549, 04 May 2019), ASM Locksmiths Limited v City of London (2210121090, 29 May 2021) and Stanmore Quality Surfacing Ltd v London Borough of Waltham Forest (2230300412, 19 July 2023).

While your case is issued under different regulations, the principle that only cancellation of a previous NTO gives the authority a power to serve another NTO on another person still stands.

If (as I suspect) TFL simply never writes back to Tusker Direct, you then have an additional ground of appeal.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: TfL red route - largely illegible PCN (thermal paper) & known flaws?
« Reply #21 on: »
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: TfL red route - largely illegible PCN (thermal paper) & known flaws?
« Reply #22 on: »
@NotFair I see you got the NTO and just paid up the full £160. Sorry to say but you've been mugged, even if you'd just denied the contravention they would have offered you the 50% discount so at the very last you've wasted £80. For various other reasons I won't go into, you could have almost certainly got this cancelled on appeal ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: TfL red route - largely illegible PCN (thermal paper) & known flaws?
« Reply #23 on: »
Unfortunately, I never got the chance to appeal. The NTO was paid immediately by Tusker (lease company), who then just recharged the £160 to me (along with a cheeky admin fee). This was despite them assuring me they would tell TfL to redirect the NTO to me.
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  3. TfL red route - largely illegible PCN (thermal paper) & known flaws?