Author Topic: TFL PCN on Red Route CCTV  (Read 2170 times)

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Spinstorm

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TFL PCN on Red Route CCTV
« on: November 02, 2023, 05:47:19 pm »
I stopped on a red zone parking area outside 750 Bath Road, near Heathrow as I was feeling sick, it was 4.30pm.

I was there for maybe max 10 mins before I left, I was struggling for my sat nav to get signal so was fiddling around at the same (this is not an excuse just stating that I wasn't just sitting there as I was lost) however I would not have stopped if I didn't feel sick.

Once I felt better I then continued on my way.

Why did I think it was okay to stop there? Honestly I saw another car parked and it was outside shops so I assumed it allowed parking. It turns out I can park for 30 mins up until 4pm.

I don't think I have any grounds to appeal but £80 seems harsh (at the discount rate), is there any way out of this?

UPDATE: I posted this on Fightback Forums and some great advice regarding CCTV and the Tribunal result. Is this a ground to appeal?

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Incandescent

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Re: TFL PCN on Red Route CCTV
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2023, 06:55:22 pm »
Quote
I posted this on Fightback Forums
I presume you mean Pepipoo. Asa you may have already worked out, contributors on there are now also on here.

The CCTV issue with enforcing parking bays on Red Routes is grounds for an appeal based on a recent London Tribunals ruling, but Transport for London took them to judicial review. The hearing was last week, but until the judge publishes his ruling we are in limbo. If TfL win, then this argument will fail.  We all hope they lose, of course !

Spinstorm

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Re: TFL PCN on Red Route CCTV
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2023, 07:16:15 pm »
Yes, @Incandescent as per your advice.

But surely if you use that as a ground of appeal now they can't reject it? As they have lost - judicial review or not if they decline my appeal then I could take it to the tribunal and they would most likely come to the same decision.

Logically therefore TFL would be smart to accept my appeal. In fact, there is an argument if we wait for the JR decision it may be too late if they win.

Incandescent

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Re: TFL PCN on Red Route CCTV
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2023, 11:13:57 pm »
It's not as straightwforward as you think, would that it were so !

Every case is individual in law, even though in this CCTV case, they're all the same, only the dates and locations are different.

No harm in submitting representations saying it is unlawful to enforce your parking using CCTV, but you can't quote the London Tribunals decision, because the judicial review means it is not yet a final decision.

I'm not familiar with the ins and outs of this CCTV case, and hopefully our administrator, CP8759 will explain. He was at the original adjudication and the judicial review.

Spinstorm

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Re: TFL PCN on Red Route CCTV
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2023, 12:54:54 pm »
@cp8759 What do you think? Thank you.

cp8759

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Re: TFL PCN on Red Route CCTV
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2023, 11:32:58 am »
In the first instance call TFL and ask for the video, they will send you a DVD in the post and put the penalty on hold while you wait.

Once you have the video upload it on here and I'll check it against the traffic management order, we also have a viable camera approval ground to explore (but need the video first) and we might have had the High Court judgment by then.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Spinstorm

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Re: TFL PCN on Red Route CCTV
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2023, 03:16:06 pm »
In the first instance call TFL and ask for the video, they will send you a DVD in the post and put the penalty on hold while you wait.

Once you have the video upload it on here and I'll check it against the traffic management order, we also have a viable camera approval ground to explore (but need the video first) and we might have had the High Court judgment by then.

Does requesting video footage on DVD extend the 21 day reduced penalty? I have until 19th November and my biggest concern is getting stuck with a £160 done!

Who do I request it from?

What is the issue with the visible camera?

cp8759

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Re: TFL PCN on Red Route CCTV
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2023, 08:04:50 pm »
Does requesting video footage on DVD extend the 21 day reduced penalty?
Yes it does, don't worry about the discount either: as long as you make a challenge when the discount is still on offer, TfL normally reoffers it anyway even if they reject.

Who do I request it from?
0343 222 3333, don't forget to ask them to put the penalty on hold while you wait.

What is the issue with the visible camera?
See Anish Raj Shrestha v Transport for London (2230256263, 26 August 2023) and Ahsan Raza v Transport for London (2230322732, 25 September 2023)
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Spinstorm

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Re: TFL PCN on Red Route CCTV
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2023, 10:02:01 pm »
@cp8759 Is it worth asking them for the make of the camera used as per those two cases?

cp8759

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Re: TFL PCN on Red Route CCTV
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2023, 10:03:38 pm »
Normally I would suggest waiting for the video, as London's streets are full of cameras and you want to make sure you ask about the right one.

If you can work out 100% which camera it was, then by all means do so, and please give us a google street view link to the camera.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Spinstorm

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Re: TFL PCN on Red Route CCTV
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2023, 01:59:47 pm »
Does the video show the camera type? But we can't see it without the DVD?

I have drafted an appeal @cp8759 but I have not sent this yet, would love some feedback from anyone here:

Dear Sir/Madam,

I was the driver of this vehicle on the date of the PCN and was authorised to both use the vehicle and represent this matter to TFL.

I am appealing this PCN for three reasons:

Mitigating Circumstances

I do not live in the area and I am not familiar with the area I was driving. I stopped as I was feeling nauseous and I was lost. I pulled over into what appeared to be a parking space as there was a car parked behind me and the road was clear. I spent about 10 minutes there trying to get my Sat Nav to work and giving myself time to feel better as continuing to drive in that state would not have been safe.

Once I was feeling better I continued on my way. I respectfully request that this PCN is cancelled on the basis that it was an honest mistake caused by feeling unwell at the time and I would not make that mistake again. I am very sorry for stopping in a location I was not meant to stop and I consider it a learning opportunity.

There has been a procedural impropriety on the part of the enforcement authority

I do hope that you accept my appeal and apology on the above basis however in case you do not there are two further grounds for my PCN to be cancelled.

I base my first reason on:
2230060716 Commercial Plant Services Ltd
2230177189 Commercial Plant Services Ltd
2230154456 Mr. Krzyztof Burger
2230173982 Mr. Richard Jackson
2230087392 Mitchell Perry
2230006834 Mr. Raja Miah
2230149387 Mr. Muhammad Asif
2220794881 Mr. Muhammad Aslam Appellants
v. Transport for London Respondent

In the London Tribunals, I will state the facts below but I am sure you are aware of this matter as I am too and to cut to the point the Tribunal found that you may not enforce a PCN in a red-route zone using CCTV, and it is in fact only enforceable with a CEO.

“The question before this specially-convened panel concerns the circumstances in which  the relevant enforcement authority, Transport for London (TfL), is permitted by Regulations 9 to 11 of the Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Approved Devices, Charging Guidelines and General Provisions) (England) Regulations 2022 (“the 2022 Regulations”) to serve a penalty charge notice (PCN) by post, on the basis of a record produced by an approved device, namely a CCTV camera, rather than by a civil enforcement officer (CEO). In particular, we are asked to determine whether a PCN may be so served in circumstances in which the contravening vehicle is stationary on part of a road that is a ‘red route’, in its general sense, but which is not marked with double or single red line markings on the carriageway. The cases before the panel principally concern PCNs served by post in circumstances in which, based on evidence from an approved device, a vehicle was in contravention whilst stationary on a red route, as defined in the applicable traffic management order (TMO) and the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 (TSRGD 2016), but on that part of the carriageway only marked so as to indicate bays in which a vehicle may stop subject to conditions.”

CONCLUSION ON THE CORE ISSUE
59. Whether on the basis of the natural and ordinary meaning of the words used as a whole in Regulation 11(2), in and of themselves or in the context of other regulations, or on the basis of a purposive construction of the regulation, informed by its genesis and other external aids, the panel is unable to accept the construction of the Regulation contended for by TfL.

60. The panel finds, having analysed the extensive submissions and materials with which we have been provided, that parking contraventions on a red route enforceable on the basis of a record produce by an approved device are confined, in the context of Regulation 11(2) to those where the vehicle is stationary on a length of road marked with double or single red line markings. There is a material distinction between the definition of a red route for the purposes of the TSRGD 2016 and the definition in Regulation 11(2) governing the circumstances in which camera enforcement of parking contraventions is permissible. That is to say, the contexts are different.

61. No-one suggests that contraventions of red route parking bays marked with the ‘item 6 bay marking’ are not enforceable at all. They are enforceable but, the panel finds, the meaning of the 2022 Regulations is that they are not enforceable on the basis of a record produced by an approved device. They are enforceable by CEO’s and, in the event the CEO is unable to effect service of the PCN in the circumstances described in Regulation 9(4) to (6), by post.

62. The panel therefore finds itself in agreement with Mr. Chan and his decision in Commercial Plant Services Ltd v Transport for London (2220896928, 2 March 2023).

63. In respect of those cases below in which the PCNs did not comply with Regulation 11(2) as we construe it, we find there was a procedural impropriety and we direct those PCNs to be cancelled. The other points will, therefore, be dealt with more briefly.

2230060716 Commercial Plant Services Ltd 65.
This appeal engages the core issue. The vehicle was parked on a (red) marked bay on a red route. Yet the PCN was served not by a CEO but by post on the basis of a record produced by an approved device. For the reasons given at length above, we hold that this was a procedural impropriety.

2230173982 Mr. Richard Jackson 77.
This appeal engages the core issue. The vehicle was parked on a (red) marked bay on a red route. Yet the PCN was served not by a CEO but by post on the basis of a record produced by an approved device. For the reasons given at length above, we hold that this was a procedural impropriety.

2230087392 Mitchell Perry 79.
This appeal engages the core issue. The vehicle was parked on a (red) marked bay on a red route. Yet the PCN was served not by a CEO but by post on the basis of a record produced by an approved device. For the reasons given at length above, we hold that this was a procedural impropriety.

2230006834 Mr. Raja Mian 80.
This appeal engages the core issue. The vehicle was parked on a suspended (white) marked bay on a red route. The fact that the bay was suspended does not alter the fact that bay markings, and not single or double red line markings, were present. Yet the PCN was served not by a CEO but by post on the basis of a record produced by an approved device. For the reasons given at length above, we hold that this was a procedural impropriety.

2230177189 Commercial Plant Services Ltd 71.
This appeal engages the core issue. The vehicle was parked on a (white) marked bay on a red route. Yet the PCN was served not by a CEO but by post on the basis of a record produced by an approved device. For the reasons given at length above, we hold that this was a procedural impropriety. 72. Given that we are allowing the appeal we deal only briefly with the issue concerning type approval, which might need to be dealt with more extensively on another occasion.* 73. Taking the evidence as a whole we would have been minded to find that there was, on the balance of probabilities, certification and approval in place for the device in question at the relevant time.

———

In light of these cases, there is no reason to assume that an appeal to the London Tribunal would result in a different outcome. I am aware that TFL has taken this matter to Judicial Review - however, as TFL is no doubt aware Judicial Review does not mean that the tribunal would have to change their decisions if you were to win in court. It would simply mean that the London Tribunal would have to review their decision making process but can still come to the same conclusion, which based on the above cases seems very likely.

I would therefore suggest that if there any doubt in your decision process over this particular appeal reason that should accept it and cancel the PCN, as I would intend whatever the outcome on this ground to take this to tribunal.

———

The next ground for appeal is if the device used was an authorised camera device, this ground was also mentioned above in 2230177189 Commercial Plant Services Ltd 71.

This matter is relevant in:
Ahsan Raza  v. Transport for London Respondent &
Anish Raj Shrestha  v. Transport for London Respondent

In both these cases at the London Tribunal the declarant did not challenge the legality of enforcement by CCTV as the above cases, but rather if the device used was an authorised device.

Anish Raj Shrestha  v. Transport for London Respondent
I have allowed this appeal for the following reasons, which relate to the requirement for certification of an "approved device" by the Secretary of State before a Penalty Charge Notice may be issued.

It is only when the device is certified by the Secretary of State that it can be used for the civil enforcement of road traffic contraventions. In this case there is no evidence of which device the Secretary of State was asked to consider. The only reference to a device is recorded in the certification letter authorised by the Secretary of State is that it is a "Digital Traffic Traffic Enforcement System".

On a Freedom of Information request, made by the Appellant's representative, the Authority confirmed that the relevant camera used in this case was a Predator HD/Ultra - H264. I find that there is no evidence to show that the camera device in question is of a make and model covered by the certificate.

Without evidence that the camera device is covered by an approval certificate, the Authority has not established that it was entitled to serve a PCN. I find this to be a procedural impropriety.

———

I make the same request here; that you provide me with the camera type for the purposes of establishing if it is certified by the Secretary of State as per the Freedom of Information Act and I also request a copy of the CCTV footage to inspect myself.

As summary of these cases and the three grounds for appeal, I would hope that you will accept my mitigating circumstances of stopping due to being nauseous and lost and accept my apology for the mistake of stopping in that location but the CCTV reason is valid and should result in cancellation of the PCN regardless and the question about camera type and certification may also provide another reason for cancellation of the PCN.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2023, 02:57:01 pm by Spinstorm »

cp8759

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Re: TFL PCN on Red Route CCTV
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2023, 10:54:04 pm »
Firstly I don't see why you'd want to lay all your cards on the table like that, it simply gives TfL a chance to come up with a full rebuttal of every point. Secondly, you misunderstand how judicial review works: if the High Court overturns the tribunal decision on the camera point, the tribunal is then required to adopt the High Court's decision in all future cases, it becomes a binding precedent.

I would also most definitely not mention the camera strategy at this point, it just gives TfL loads of time to come up with a response.

If you want to take this to the tribunal, just make a one line representation saying that the contravention did not occur.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Spinstorm

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Re: TFL PCN on Red Route CCTV
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2023, 07:42:54 pm »
I take it that based on TFL losing the Judicial Review is that unless they allow my appeal on mitigating circumstances that my only remaining grounds to appeal is the camera type now.

cp8759

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Re: TFL PCN on Red Route CCTV
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2023, 01:14:00 pm »
I take it that based on TFL losing the Judicial Review is that unless they allow my appeal on mitigating circumstances that my only remaining grounds to appeal is the camera type now.
Yes that's correct.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Spinstorm

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Re: TFL PCN on Red Route CCTV
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2024, 08:56:01 pm »
TFL accepted my appeal.

I would love to tell everyone if it was due to them being reasonable as I felt unwell, or due to the CCTV camera type or some other policy but I have no idea as they emailed the company the car was borrowed from and not me… even though I am the one who appealed.

I had an email from the car company saying it was cancelled. Bit odd they didn’t email me directly…