Author Topic: TFL: Elspeth road / Mysore road  (Read 3221 times)

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TFL: Elspeth road / Mysore road
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Hi team, I received a penalty for turning right.

Have you had this case before? Please advise

Many thanks

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Re: TFL: Elspeth road / Mysore road
« Reply #1 on: »
Each case turns on its own facts, let's have your side of the story pl.

Re: TFL: Elspeth road / Mysore road
« Reply #2 on: »
So here: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/vogmRu1Brq3qn52m7
GSV latest is July 2022, so this is a relatively new restriction.
SO, OP, please tell us about the signs, and why you did no obey them. Photos of the approach best if you are able to take them.

Re: TFL: Elspeth road / Mysore road
« Reply #3 on: »
@concoj all TFL penalties are subject to challenge at the moment owing to various technical arguments, however the starting point is to get the video. Call TFL first thing tomorrow on 0343 222 3333 and ask for the CCTV, they will send you a DVD in the post and put the penalty on hold while you wait.

In the meantime I'll get hold of the traffic order.

As for signage, there's one here https://maps.app.goo.gl/kd9UzkDm9MqxiFd79 that's been around since 2019, but that's 50 yards from the junction and there's no sign at the actual junction; Chapter 3 of the Traffic Signs Manual says at 4.5.3 that "A prohibited turn sign to diagram 612 or 613 is sited immediately before the junction, normally on the left hand side."

It would be useful if you could go back and check if the signage situation has changed at all.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: TFL: Elspeth road / Mysore road
« Reply #4 on: »
@concoj any update on this?

The TFL website says this:



An enquiry is not a representation, you need to submit a representation sooner rather than later or you risk running out of time and losing the right to appeal. A representation is submitted by using the "challenge" button you can see on https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/challenge-a-pcn once you access the PCN details.

In the meantime I've got hold of The Wandsworth (Prescribed Routes) (No. 5) Order 2019.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: TFL: Elspeth road / Mysore road
« Reply #5 on: »
dear cp8759 you where all correct "As for signage, there's one here https://maps.app.goo.gl/kd9UzkDm9MqxiFd79 that's been around since 2019, but that's 50 yards from the junction and there's no sign at the actual junction"

I went to record a video the day after you advised and also requested video footage that I need to play and post to you probably using imgur.com

Re: TFL: Elspeth road / Mysore road
« Reply #6 on: »

Re: TFL: Elspeth road / Mysore road
« Reply #7 on: »


Challenge draft

Representation details:


*I was not the owner of the vehicle at the time or never was the owner of the vehicle in question.

There was no contravention of a prescribed order or failure to comply with an indication given by a sign.



Supporting evidence



The only signage is located 50 yards from the junction and there's no sign at the actual junction; Chapter 3 of the Traffic Signs Manual says at 4.5.3 that "A prohibited turn sign to diagram 612 or 613 is sited immediately before the junction, normally on the left hand side."

Attached evidence:
https://imgur.com/a/1BQp30T
1. Self recorded footage
2. TFL CCTV footage




Is that ok, should I proceed, please kindly advise



Re: TFL: Elspeth road / Mysore road
« Reply #8 on: »
You are considered to be the 'owner' for these purposes if you were the registered keeper on the date of the contravention.

Were you?

As an aside, I think these PCNs are worded dreadfully because they'll be some/many recipients who simply want to represent that 'the contravention did not happen' and who beat themselves up about what the hell is a 'prescribed order' and 'scheduled section 36 traffic sign'. Even the front of the PCN only refers to 'contravention'!

Anyway OP, as regards the omission of signs my understanding is:

The Traffic Signs Manual reference is para. 4.2.9 and Fig. 4.12 pages 29 and 30. This still refers to 'should' not 'must'.

The LATOR (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1996/2489/contents/made) reference is Regulation 18, but again this refers to 'may consider requisite ...adequate information'.

Similarly, the Traffic Signs etc. Regs refer to siting 'as near as practicable' to the place where the prohibition has effect. Whether there is case law on this point, I don't know.

But in any event, put together this means that the burden is on TfL to show why, in this case, the only sign has been placed 50m in advance of the point at which the prohibition applies.

As regards 'as near as practical', I could possibly see TfL arguing that the sign is placed at the same point at which footway parking is permitted within a parking place and that in order to avoid obstructing cars parked on the footway the sign has been placed immediately before and that after is not practicable because of the trees.

Who knows what they'll argue, assuming you get more than a simple 'niet' from them!


Re: TFL: Elspeth road / Mysore road
« Reply #9 on: »


There was no contravention of a prescribed order or failure to comply with an indication given by a sign.
Challenge draft

Representation details:


*There was no contravention of a prescribed order or failure to comply with an indication given by a sign.

Supporting evidence:


The only signage is located 50 yards from the junction and there's no sign at the actual junction; Chapter 3 of the Traffic Signs Manual says at 4.5.3 that "A prohibited turn sign to diagram 612 or 613 is sited immediately before the junction, normally on the left hand side."

Attached evidence:
https://imgur.com/a/1BQp30T
1. Self recorded footage
2. TFL CCTV footage




Is that ok, should I proceed, please kindly advise



***thank you so much H C Andersen as the previous message had an error
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Re: TFL: Elspeth road / Mysore road
« Reply #10 on: »
still under review six months already

Re: TFL: Elspeth road / Mysore road
« Reply #11 on: »
No it will be six months on 12 December. If by then it's still showing as under review, I suggest at that point you use the formal complaints process to complain about the delay. It is really important that you make it really clear the complaint is not about the PCN or asking for the PCN to be cancelled, but merely complaining about the excessive delay in getting a response.

The complaint can be made here: https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/red-routes/red-routes-complaints-procedure
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: TFL: Elspeth road / Mysore road
« Reply #12 on: »
"[No it will be six months on 12 December]" I do not get it sorry.


however is that necessary to make a complaint ? what is the porpoise of it?

Re: TFL: Elspeth road / Mysore road
« Reply #13 on: »
A complaint is not necessary, but it's probably the only way to force TFL to close the PCN. Otherwise this could stay hanging over you indefinitely, which I'm not sure is what most people would want.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: TFL: Elspeth road / Mysore road
« Reply #14 on: »
got ya,


could you please kindly advise or formulate a complain that I'll raise right away