Author Topic: TFL, code 46 Stopped on a red route bay, york way N1 / TFL, red route bay  (Read 353 times)

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Arashk998

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Hi all,

Received the linked PCN today from TFL, no action taken currently.
From reading forum it seems like camera argument is invalid now so looking for other fair arguments against it.

Parked on a red route bay on a Saturday around 18:30 for 1-2mins whilst dropping a passenger off near kings cross station. Thinking it is traffic warden monitored and the short time staying there will not be an issue. The sign from the google image has a black tape over the loading/unloading times (i am aware my task does not count as unloading)

PCN Picture : https://imgur.com/a/Z5v4LgD

Google maps location: https://maps.app.goo.gl/kY4cnmqgGN6fqXUp6?g_st=ic

Any valid arguments i can use at all? Should i still request the CCTV DVD footage?

Thanks in advance specially to cp as he has helped me on another forum successfully before.

Arash

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Incandescent

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You should definitely request the video. this will put the PCN on hold for about two weeks and give more time for us to investigate. Be aware that TfL will restart the enforcement clock then, even if you haven't received the DVD, so you must make a note in your diary.

Did you drop the passenger off at the location ? This activity is called "board/alight passengers" and is normally an exempt event, but I'm not sure with Red Route bays. Hopefully somebody can clarify.

Arashk998

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I requested the video yesterday. In the meantime, has anyone got any tips please. Would appreciate any help.

Thanks

Incandescent

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I requested the video yesterday. In the meantime, has anyone got any tips please. Would appreciate any help.

Thanks
We need to know exactly what the covered-up sign in GSV says.  Please also tell us exactly on GSV where you parked.

Arashk998

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See below link to a picture of a sign bit down the road which is similar sign.
https://imgur.com/a/3sxUYOI

I was parked where the Peugeot is parked in front of tanning shop
https://imgur.com/a/GJAU7Gp

Incandescent

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So the similar sign shows the Red Route restriction times are  8,00am to 7.00pm, PCN time 18.24, so within the times. Loading allowed 20 minutes, and Blue Badge parking 3 hours. You were dropping off a passenger which may be an exemption, but I'm not sufficiently up-to-speed on that aspect of Red Route bays.
Hopefully somebody can tell us, but it's holiday season at the moment.  I had a look on TfL's web site and even they don't tell you !

Arashk998

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Thanks but I think the sign says.
Except 10am - 4pm
Loading max 20mins
Disabled max 3 hours

Basically can I not say during that one minute I was checking the sign details and a safe place to park instead?

H C Andersen

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I wouldn't say anything which is not supported by the video which you've not posted, presumably not received. At present the discount period has ended and the 28-day reps period ends 22 Aug.

TfL's 'Rules of Red Route' (https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/red-routes/rules-of-red-routes/loading-for-the-public) states:


What you shouldn't do
Stop in the bay without loading or unloading - the bay is not for waiting or parking
Use the bay outside of the hours shown on the sign or for longer than permitted
Use the bay to park or go shopping
Use the bay to pick up and drop off passengers


As an aside, I don't understand these(it's not the only one) bays. The RR prohibition before the bay is 24/7, the prohibition after the bay is 24/7 and yet within the bay is Mon-Sat 8am-7pm. Which means that outside these hours there's no RR prohibition..which means that the road then becomes can't stop, can stop, can't stop, can stop etc....  Absent seeing the traffic order - which you wouldn't see pre-adjudication- I can't look at its contents, unless someone has a copy of this(I doubt this is the first time this location has appeared here!).

Arashk998

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I wont reply to them until I have video and a valid response but I was asking the question until it arrives.
I requested the video on 7th August and their website matches this saying this has been put on hold enquiry received.
They said it could take up to 2 weeks.

H C Andersen

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Then IMO you should contact them to get confirmation in writing that the 28-day clock has been stopped(unless you already have this).

7 Aug plus 2 weeks is 21st: deadline for reps is 22nd.

Arashk998

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On their website it says the discount term is on hold waiting for video footage which just arrived today. Please see below link to the video.
https://gofile.io/d/3V32GQ

You can see it took less than a minute to drive off which could be the same time to read all the different rules on their sign.

Any help would be great please

hirerspcn

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Arashk998

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Sorry cant see what your explanation was other than the issues with not suspending your discount dates etc. what reasoning should I use?
Updated the link with compatible video format
https://gofile.io/d/0a3MrP

cp8759

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Re: TFL, code 46 Stopped on a red route bay, york way N1 / TFL, red route bay
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2024, 12:18:06 am »
@Arashk998 you don't want to end up with a charge certificate so for now make a representation as follows:

Dear Transport for London,

The CCTV footage confirms that the sign for this bay was not facing oncoming traffic and as such a driver approaching the bay would not be able to ascertain the restrictions without stopping to get out of this car. In this particular case my passenger alighted once I stopped, and I then drove off again. If I had got out of the car to go and read the sign, my car would have been stopped for longer than it actually was and in such circumstances, there is no contravention.

I trust enforcement of this bay will be adjusted to allow time for motorists to stop and look at the sign, at least until your maintenance crews have had a chance to turn the sign towards oncoming traffic, in the meantime I look forward to confirmation that the penalty has been cancelled.

I also hereby request, under the Freedom of Information Act 2000, details of the make and model of the CCTV camera which captured the footage.

Yours faithfully,


Send this ASAP via https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/challenge-a-pcn and make sure to take a screenshot of the confirmation page.

In the meantime one argument to keep for the tribunal might be found in the traffic order, which is The GLA Roads and GLA Side Roads (Islington) Red Route Consolidation Traffic Order 2008. The entry for this bay is at the top of page 65:

YORK WAY, the east side from a point 10 metres south of the extended common boundary of Nos. 12 and 14 York Way for a distance of 15 metres in a southerly direction.

Number 14 York Way no longer exists, there is only a single premises taken up by Nandos that is known as 12 to 16, so the common boundary of 12 and 14 cannot possibly exist. This sort of thing has won before, for instance in Louis Knight-Webb v Transport for London (2230260442, 8 July 2023) and Adrian Smith v Transport for London (2230491729, 24 January 2024), but that can only be deployed at the tribunal once we know for sure what traffic order TFL is relying on.

However one advantage of TFL PCNs is that if a notice of rejection is issued reoffering the discount, then as long as you appeal immediately (so that TFL gets the notification of a hearing while the discount has not yet expired) then TFL will accept the discount even if you lose the appeal, so you effectively have nothing to lose in taking it all the way.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
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Arashk998

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Re: TFL, code 46 Stopped on a red route bay, york way N1 / TFL, red route bay
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2024, 01:17:36 am »
@cp8759 cannot thank you enough again, just submitted using the wording above and took a screenshot. Will let you know the outcome.