3. TfL Box Junction - Vehicle stopped for pedestrian crossing not due to other vehicles.
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Re: TfL Box Junction - Vehicle stopped for pedestrian crossing not due to other vehicles.
« Reply #15 on: »
I've yet to see a Notice of Rejection written by someone who applies the law correctly.  Councils/TFL seem to have the view that any stop in a box junction for whatever reason justifies a PCN.

Adjudicators will take the view that if the video doesn't show all aspects, there's insufficient evidence of a contravention.  For example even where the video shows a stop and a stationary vehicle necessitating the stop, if the video doesn't also show the moment of entry into the box that's insufficient (as the offence is based on traffic conditions at this moment).
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Re: TfL Box Junction - Vehicle stopped for pedestrian crossing not due to other vehicles.
« Reply #16 on: »
What gets me cross, is that even if this case is won, they council will continue to serve PCNs even though the camera  can never, ever, show an alleged contravention properly. Then because most people don't know the exact nature of the contravention, they just cough-up. For me, this behaviour is close to, or even is, malfeasance.
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Re: TfL Box Junction - Vehicle stopped for pedestrian crossing not due to other vehicles.
« Reply #17 on: »
The legal test is balance of probabilities.

You stopped but there isn't concrete proof that this was because of a stationary vehicle. You've already advanced the argument that you stopped because the pedestrian lights were against you. But the vehicle ahead didn't stop, so why did you? They're pedestrian operated, so where's the pedestrian. Sorry if this is overtinking, and some adjudicators might just say: no evidence of stationary vehicle ahead, appeal allowed. But some might not.

You refer to a dashcam snap(s), may we see this/these pl.

Any of our posters live near? A video of the cycle of these lights would be invaluable. You could also ask TfL, but not the highways arm not the enforcement authority.
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Re: TfL Box Junction - Vehicle stopped for pedestrian crossing not due to other vehicles.
« Reply #18 on: »
Quote from: H C Andersen on July 01, 2025, 07:23:44 pm
The legal test is balance of probabilities.

You stopped but there isn't concrete proof that this was because of a stationary vehicle. You've already advanced the argument that you stopped because the pedestrian lights were against you. But the vehicle ahead didn't stop, so why did you? They're pedestrian operated, so where's the pedestrian. Sorry if this is overtinking, and some adjudicators might just say: no evidence of stationary vehicle ahead, appeal allowed. But some might not.

You refer to a dashcam snap(s), may we see this/these pl.

Any of our posters live near? A video of the cycle of these lights would be invaluable. You could also ask TfL, but not the highways arm not the enforcement authority.

The dashcam still is in the pdf I called my appeal attached to the original post. I'll attach the image itself on to this comment though.

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Re: TfL Box Junction - Vehicle stopped for pedestrian crossing not due to other vehicles.
« Reply #19 on: »
Quote from: Incandescent on July 01, 2025, 06:50:31 pm
What gets me cross, is that even if this case is won, they council will continue to serve PCNs even though the camera  can never, ever, show an alleged contravention properly. Then because most people don't know the exact nature of the contravention, they just cough-up. For me, this behaviour is close to, or even is, malfeasance.

True, I had a paid PCN refunded recently from Bexley Council. Some of our drivers had been parking on this industrial estate road called Hailey Road in  Bexley, a prime location for HGV's to park up over night as there are no signs on or approaching this road with parking restrictions. But I got 3 PCN's for this place,  for different vehicles. First one they rejected the appeal and it was paid, £110 (wasn't my decision). The second and third I eventually got cancelled,  I had to complain to the council and make an information request, as they were claiming our vehicles were in contravention of an overnight waiting ban on commercial vehicles. I live and work in Cumbria so I had no idea about this prohibition on the entire borough of Bexley and it took me complaining to the council and making a request for information to actually find out about it.

They were relying on sign posts indicating a no waiting prohibition zone for commercial vehicles on the perimeter of the borough to enforce this throughout the entire 60km²+ of the Borough of Bexley. Absolutely ridiculous and quite likely against the regulations.

I eventually got dashcam footage showing no sign posts on the perimeter either and made a complaint for a refund and got one in full. But they still insist our vehicle would have passed a sign for the prohibition.... even after I sent them dashcam footage of our vehicle driving from half a mile out of Bexley, driving into Bexley, and 10km to Hailey Road, and not a single sign for the prohibition is passed.

In terms of these box junctions, I think maybe they should just have a camera on each corner or atleast 2 opposing corners for multiple angles. Would probably save money in the long run by cutting out the crap and time wasting cases like this one.
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Re: TfL Box Junction - Vehicle stopped for pedestrian crossing not due to other vehicles.
« Reply #20 on: »
I hadn't previously seen the dashcam photo, but IMO it is totally persuasive.

The dashcam is timed at 14.21.23. This shows the HGV which was immediately ahead of you at the YBJ now a considerable distance away.

You became stationary at 14.21.09 having followed this same HGV across the YBJ. Your cab was aligned with the crossing. You started moving at 14.21.23.

The authority have no objective evidence as to why your vehicle stopped, but must adduce evidence or argument which on the balance of probabilities proves that you stopped due to the presence of stationary vehicles. The only possible vehicle being the HGV ahead of you.

Your argument is that you stopped because of pedestrian controlled traffic lights. 

You could not have stopped because the HGV ahead itself stopped at the lights because there was insufficient room between your vehicle and the crossing. Therefore the authority must be asserting that, notwithstanding the crossing, that vehicle stopped for whatever reason beyond the lights and that it was pure coincidence that this caused your vehicle to stop such that your cab was aligned with the stop line at the crossing which at that time was in your favour. Your dashcam photo shows that at the time you set off the HGV was a considerable distance ahead. According to the authority's reasoning, this must have been because you did not stop because of the crossing but that while you were stationary the lights changed against you and this explains why the HGV was so far ahead i.e. it was free to move but you were not. You would submit that the likelihood that each of these factors was in place and that the authority's contention that you stopped because of the presence of stationary vehicles is correct is so remote that on the balance of probabilities they have not proved that a contravention occurred and that your appeal should be allowed.

I've been as comprehensive as possible with a view to getting TfL to no contest.

Of course you could submit the shorter version i.e. there's no evidence as to what caused your vehicle to stop and therefore the authority have not proved their case.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2025, 02:32:42 pm by H C Andersen »
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Re: TfL Box Junction - Vehicle stopped for pedestrian crossing not due to other vehicles.
« Reply #21 on: »
I received the Transport for London evidence in the post today. They said "TfL acknowledges the Appellant's comments that the vehicle stopped due to a red light on the pedestrian controlled traffic lights, however, TfL submits that it is the driver's responsibility to ensure a correct judgement is made when attempting to cross over the traffic lights. Directions given by traffic lights are advisory; the green light indicates that motorists may proceed with caution, if it is safe and lawful to do so, not that they must; an amber light always give adequate warning that traffic lights are about to turn to red. Regardless of the colour of the traffic lights, drivers should not enter a yellow box junction unless their exit is clear and it is possible to cross the junction without stopping"

Sooo if traffic lights are advisory, should the HGV have just gone through the red light and mowed down any pedestrians crossing?
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Re: TfL Box Junction - Vehicle stopped for pedestrian crossing not due to other vehicles.
« Reply #22 on: »
Complete nonsense and they should know better. Box junctions convey a prohibition of stopping due to stationary vehicles only. Traffic lights are completely out of scope no matter what colour.
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Re: TfL Box Junction - Vehicle stopped for pedestrian crossing not due to other vehicles.
« Reply #23 on: »
In part of it they also state that my dashcam still showing our vehicle stopped at the pedestrian crossing lights with plenty of room ahead to move into and clear the box junction, is irrelevant. I can't remember why they said that was exactly but I suspect it was something to do with them believing the traffic lights are irrelevant too. We'll see if the adjudicator shares that opinion 🤷‍♂️
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Re: TfL Box Junction - Vehicle stopped for pedestrian crossing not due to other vehicles.
« Reply #24 on: »
When's the appeal being heard?  Will be following the adjudicator's comments with great interest.
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Re: TfL Box Junction - Vehicle stopped for pedestrian crossing not due to other vehicles.
« Reply #25 on: »
Not a hearing. It'll be decided on paper. I couldn't appeal online as TfL wouldn't give me a web verification code to do it, so I had to do it by post and didn't know if I'd have a choice on when the hearing would be. Not sure it would have helped anyway as I wasn't driving, it's not like I could offer any further clarity on what happened. But I will update when I get a decision.
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Re: TfL Box Junction - Vehicle stopped for pedestrian crossing not due to other vehicles.
« Reply #26 on: »
The appeal was allowed and TfL were directed to cancel the Penalty Charge Notice.

Reasons: "The allegation in this case is
entering and stopping in a box
junction when prohibited. The
Appellants dispute this on the
basis the stop was caused by
traffic lights rather than
stationary vehicles. They have
provided a still photograph
taken from dashcam footage
as supporting evidence.


I have considered the
Appellant's photograph
together with Google
Streetview and the
enforcement camera evidence,
Having done so I am satisfied
this was a poor piece of driving
which committed the mischief
which the Regulation aims to
prevent; the Appellants' driver
entered and stopped in the box
junction. However, it seems
more likely that this was
caused by a red traffic light
than by stationary vehicles. The
contravention only occurs if the
vehicle has to stop due to the
presence of stationary
vehicles.


The Enforcement Authority can
avoid cases such as this by
locating their cameras in
positions which show the
traffic beyond the box junction
In any event, on this occasion
am not satisfied they have
established their case and
accordingly I allow the appeal."
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Re: TfL Box Junction - Vehicle stopped for pedestrian crossing not due to other vehicles.
« Reply #27 on: »
Poor piece of driving which committed the mischief?

What mischief? What poor driving?

Anyway well done for seeing this through.
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Re: TfL Box Junction - Vehicle stopped for pedestrian crossing not due to other vehicles.
« Reply #28 on: »
Quote from: MrChips on November 18, 2025, 08:20:24 am
Poor piece of driving which committed the mischief?
What mischief? What poor driving?
Anyway well done for seeing this through.

+1
Well done   :) . Cannot see the point of Mr.Burke's snidey comments.
Case number 2250341944
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Re: TfL Box Junction - Vehicle stopped for pedestrian crossing not due to other vehicles.
« Reply #29 on: »
Quote from: MrChips on November 18, 2025, 08:20:24 am
Poor piece of driving which committed the mischief?

What mischief? What poor driving?

Anyway well done for seeing this through.

Presumably they refer to entering the box junction when there was not enough room on the other side to clear it, against the advice of the highway code. The traffic was flowing and the vehicle would have cleared the box junction if not for the pedestrian controlled traffic lights changing. Whether or not following the highway code would have prevented the vehicle stopping in the box... who knows? As the driver can't know exactly when a pedestrian controlled traffic light will change  :-\
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