3. Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
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Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
« Reply #15 on: »
Well upon reflection, I have concluded that this case is really open and shut, so much so that if they pursued this I think they might end up on the hook for a costs order.

The problem with this sort of case is that the traffic order will have been made years ago and until someone challenges a PCN to the tribunal, the traffic order never gets any proper scrutiny (and even if someone did make a complaint about the issues with the traffic order absent a PCN, I suspect the council would either tell them to take a hike, or say the issue would be looked into some time maybe never).

@northwalian here you go:

Dear City and County of Swansea Council,

I challenge liability on the ground that the alleged contravention did not occur. The sign states "Deiliaid bathodyn anabledd a trwydded yn unig", I am a blue badge holder and I have a driving licence so I understood the space to be available to me. My Trwydded Yrru says says "Trwydded Yrru" right at the top.

Furthermore, the penalty charge notice alleges an on-street contravention but the traffic order is The Council of the City and County of Swansea the Rotunda Carriageway Fronting the Guildhall Off-Street Parking Place Order Traffic Regulation Order 2019, which very much indicates this is an off-street car park, so an on-street contravention could not possibly occur.

Article 20(f) of the order indicates the bays are available to holders of permits G or M, but nothing on the traffic sign make any reference to any such permits, so the signage is plainly inadequate. I would add that as the order is drafted, the holder of a G or M permit is entitled to park in these bays regardless of whether they have a blue badge, which would seem to defeat the purpose of these bays.

Lastly article 21 of the traffic order provides a complete exemption to the restriction for blue badge holders, and that is a complete defence to the allegation.

Given that the council's case has more holes than a sieve, I would suggest you cancel the penalty now rather than pursuing this matter further and embarrassing yourselves.

Yours faithfully,

@belt once a Welsh translation of the draft has been provided please send the representation online and keep a screenshot of the confirmation page. If the council is foolish enough to reject I'll sort out the representation for you at the notice to owner stage, I'll just need a letter of authority from your father.

Whatever happens don't let your father be tempted to give in and pay, as that would literally be throwing money away for nothing.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
« Reply #16 on: »
I'll get on it. Can you link the parking order please, preferably the Welsh version. I could only find traffic orders on their website
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Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
« Reply #17 on: »
Can I row back pl.

The PCN relates to an on-street contravention, not off-street car park.

As such, the signs must conform to the Traffic etc. signs regs which, as observed, apply to England and Wales.

What do the photos show?

A car parked within a box marked in yellow with the International Symbol of Access marked inside, again in yellow. The box markings create an area and are not simply lines. Ahead of the car is what resembles - in its size, colour, layout and content - a specified traffic sign.

However, the markings are not prescribed for use on a road, neither is the ISA nor the upright traffic sign itself.

Is the location covered by the posted off-street order, in which case the contravention grounds are incorrect. A driver/owner entitled to know exactly what contravention of an order is being alleged. In this case IMO the omission of the words 'car park' mean that a driver/owner would/could not formulate a defence based upon improper traffic signs and failure to comply with LATOR because this does not apply off-street.

As regards the upright sign, this may include a type of user and where this is a permit holder a permit identifier which is defined as:

any upper case letter or letters, with or without a number, whether or not placed on a patch which may be of any colour, where the letter and, as the case may be, number are of any size, in a colour that contrasts with the background on which they are placed and indicate a type of permit

IMO, it's a procedural mess which should not succeed at adjudication, whether held in English or Welsh!
« Last Edit: May 02, 2024, 12:12:00 pm by H C Andersen »
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Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
« Reply #18 on: »
Quote from: northwalian on May 02, 2024, 09:59:57 am
I'll get on it. Can you link the parking order please, preferably the Welsh version. I could only find traffic orders on their website
@northwalian I only have the English version here. I'll ask for the Welsh one but it could take up until 6 June to get it back, so we might have to make do with the English one.

@H C Andersen I agree it's a procedural mess, but that's not a reason not to give the council every opportunity to mess it up even more.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
« Reply #19 on: »
@northwalian just got this back from the council:

We have not published a Welsh version of the Order as The Welsh Language Standards (No. 1) Regulations 2015 applies to County Councils, within which Sch 2 Part 1 Standards 69 and 70 covers notices, but Sch 1 Part 3 Para 41 exempts us from that element of translating PTRO notices. However, we can have the TRO translated for you if you still wish for a copy.

Do you want me to ask them to translate it?
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
« Reply #20 on: »
@cp8759
tagging @belt as they haven't been on since May 1st

With apologies for the time taken, I've been away. I was after the Welsh of the Order to get the title, and also to find out if "on street parking" and "off street parking" has a legal translation as what we use everyday seems literal but colloquial, Still, if they haven't got a Welsh version already, it doesn't seem to be relevant, I've therefore just put the English title in. (Must admit I thought the Welsh Language Act required public bodies to have it in both languages)

Anyway, try this. Note Anyone from the South will know that I have done this more as we would in the Gogledd.

Not 100% the 'sieve' comment works well in Welsh but it's in there as requested. I can't think of a Welsh idiom.


Annwyl Cyngor Dinas a Sir Abertawe,

Rydw i'n herio atebolrwydd ar y sail y na wnaeth ddigwydd y drosedd honedig.
Mae'r arwydd yn dangos “Deiliaid bathodyn anabledd a thrwydded yn unig”. Mae gen I fathodyn glas ac mae gen i drwydded yrru hefyd, felly roedd hi'n amlwg yr oedd y lle ar gael i mi. Ar frig fy nhrwyddedd yrru ydy'r geiriau “Trwydded Yrru”.

Bellach, mae'r Hysbysiad Tal Cosb yn honni trosedd ar-y-stryd, ond mae “THE COUNCIL OF THE CITY AND COUNTY OF SWANSEA THE ROTUNDA CARRIAGEWAY FRONTING THE GUILDHALL OFF STREET PARKING PLACE ORDER Traffic Regulation Order 2019” yn nodi mai maes parcio oddi-ar-y-stryd ydy hwn. Felly, dydy hi ddim yn bosib cael trosedd ar-y-stryd yn y fan hyn.

Erthygl 20(f) y gorchymyn yn nodi bod y mannau ar gael i ddeiliaid caniatadau G neu M, ond does dim byd ar yr arwydd ynglŷn â fathau caniatadau. Felly, mae'r arwydd yn hollol annigonol. Hefyd, byddwn i'n ychwanegu, y ffordd mae'r gorchymyn wedi cael ei ysgrifenni, mae deiliad caniatad G neu M yn cael parcio yn y mannau hyn, oes gynnyn nhw fathodyn glas ai beidio. Mae'n ymddangos, felly, bod hyn yn trechu pwrpas yn mannau hyn.

Yn olaf, mae erthygl 21 y gorchymyn yn rhoi eithriad llwyr i'r cyfyngiad i ddeiliaid bathodyn glas. Mae hyn yn amddiffyniad llwyr i'r drosedd honedig.

Mae gan achos y cyngor mwy o dyllau na rhidyll. Byddwn i'n awgrymu eich bod chi yn canslo'r Hysbysiad Tal Cosb, yn lle parhau efo'r mater ac yn codi cywilydd ar eich hunain.

Yn gywir,
« Last Edit: May 20, 2024, 08:28:52 pm by cp8759 »
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Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
« Reply #21 on: »
Not sure if @belt is still around but an edit (I can't edit the above post?) replace "seilen" with "sail" as I've been told "grounds" can only be used in the plural
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Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
« Reply #22 on: »
Quote from: northwalian on May 15, 2024, 08:02:51 pm
Not sure if @belt is still around but an edit (I can't edit the above post?) replace "seilen" with "sail" as I've been told "grounds" can only be used in the plural
Done, I see belt has been back today so hopefully he's submitted that.

@belt please could you confirm?
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
« Reply #23 on: »
Hello again,

Apologies for the delay in response (family stuff).

I can confirm it was submitted. My father received a response just a few days ago:

"I am pleased to inform you that on this occasion your explanation has been accepted and
the Penalty Charge has now been cancelled.
Please ensure to read the signage in the future to avoid further PCN being issued to you.
If you are issued further PCNs for the same contravention, these may not be cancelled."

Many thanks for all your help, it's been most appreciated!
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Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
« Reply #24 on: »
Diolch am hynny, falch o glywed :)
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Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
« Reply #25 on: »
@belt thanks for letting us know, teamwork really paid off on this one. By the way was the reply in English or Welsh?
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
« Reply #26 on: »
All your help was very much appreciated; the reply letter was bilingual (I s'pose they use a cut-and-paste template for that).

Unfortunately my father somehow managed to get another PCN (different council, different circumstances), so I'm going to have to start a new thread!
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  3. Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda