Author Topic: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda  (Read 261 times)

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belt

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Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
« on: April 17, 2024, 02:37:33 am »
Hello all,

My father (disabled badge holder) parked in a disabled bay, displayed his blue badge with correct time... then came back about 20 minutes later to find a penalty charge on the windscreen.




He rang the council and spoke to someone who apparently sympathised with his plight. He was promised a call back, but heard nothing since.

I asked him to go back a few days later and take a photo of the sign. My father interpreted the mention of "permit" as meaning the disabled badge itself.



I have never seen such wording. If it referred to a certain type of permit, I would expect it to specify further (e.g. "resident permit holders") or show the representation of the permit (e.g. "C9") in a black box. The disabled symbol below the "P" makes it look like a regular disabled parking bay, at least to me it does.

Location is here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/XwkvBGUEtWx5iUR56

Any help with this would be really appreciated.

Many thanks in advance.

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northwalian

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Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2024, 09:00:48 pm »
As a fluent Welsh speaker, I have always understood the word "trwydded" as "licence", not "permit" Permit is "caniatad". Regardless of the English displayed, I would always read the Welsh first as it's the first on the sign, and it would mean, to me, "disabled badge holders with a licence only".

Incandescent

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Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2024, 10:17:10 pm »
Obviously he didn't notice this sign as he entered the Guildhall Rotunda car park, which is for permit holders and council visitors only : -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/fGQuBrodzJvrtjxW7
I presume if you are a council visitor, you have to register your car at the council offices on arrival.
As a car park, it has spaces set aside for BB holders, but obviously, the overriding need for a permit remains.
I think he should submit informal reps against the PCN stating that the sign for the car park conditions is set very low at the entry point so he must have missed it, and ask for them to cancel on this ocasion. ALso make sure you include details of the BB and clock which was displayed as normally required.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2024, 10:20:14 pm by Incandescent »

belt

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Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2024, 11:24:05 am »
Many thanks for all your help.

I am going to aid him to make an informal representation on the basis you have suggested, Incandescent.


By the way "Trwydded" does indeed mean "licence" in Welsh. His driving licence says "Trwydded Yrru" right at the top.

Adding to the confusion the parking ticket uses a different word for "permit": "hawlen".

Perhaps this should be mentioned to them?


Thanks again.

Incandescent

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Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2024, 01:08:53 pm »
Yes, put it in. Is he a a native Welsh speaker ?

belt

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Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2024, 05:14:35 pm »
Yes, put it in. Is he a a native Welsh speaker ?

Not a native Welsh speaker but as an additional language (like most in Swansea).

He read the Welsh version as he understood it completely.

Reading it once in each language, he expected more clarity... unfortunately the two versions give slightly different meanings.

cp8759

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Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2024, 11:21:13 pm »
@belt well this could be fun, the Traffic Penalty Tribunal does allow proceedings to be conducted in Welsh so it should be possible to request a Welsh-speaking adjudicator.

Regulation 18 of The Local Authorities’ Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996 obviously apply to Wales so I would argue the signage is inadequate.

However this would have to be taken to the tribunal as I doubt the council would concede its signage is inadequate.

Can we have the PCN number please? As per the guidance here, there's no point in hiding it.

In the meantime I'll get hold of the traffic order, the last time we looked at a bay such as this the traffic order turned out not to exist.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2024, 11:23:05 pm by cp8759 »
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

belt

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Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2024, 03:03:26 am »
The PCN number is WJ06163498.

Thanks for your help!

cp8759

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Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2024, 06:13:24 pm »
Well I can see why people would easily get caught out here:



@northwalian if I draft a representation would you be able to repost it in Welsh?
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

northwalian

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Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2024, 09:31:03 pm »
Go for it, but I have to say the difference between the spoken Welsh we use up here in the north is a million miles from anything written for legal or semi-legal needs. (compare street English and what's in the Bible). I'd use English myself for something 'important'.
Certainly happy to translate but wouldn't it end up in a Welsh-language tribunal hearing?

Incandescent

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Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2024, 09:41:02 pm »
Go for it, but I have to say the difference between the spoken Welsh we use up here in the north is a million miles from anything written for legal or semi-legal needs. (compare street English and what's in the Bible). I'd use English myself for something 'important'.
Certainly happy to translate but wouldn't it end up in a Welsh-language tribunal hearing?
That's the whole point ! 

northwalian

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Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2024, 09:51:53 pm »
that's my point, who would attend that in welsh?

Incandescent

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Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2024, 12:03:39 am »
that's my point, who would attend that in welsh?
For most adjudications, the only attendees are the appellant and the adjudicator. The enforcing authority usually don't attend.

ManxTom

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Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2024, 02:48:14 pm »
Wouldn't it be sufficient simply to point out to the adjudicator that the sign's meaning as expressed in the Welsh language is different from its meaning as expressed in English?

If the OP's father is bi-lingual and can see the difference, how can he reasonably be expected to know whether he needed a "licence" as indicated in Welsh (thrwydded) or a "permit" as the English says (which would have been "caniatad" in Welsh).

If the sign is bi-linguinal but expresses different meanings in both languages, how is the motorist to know what they need in order to be able to park legitimately?

Would asking for a meeting in Welsh complicate it unnecesssarily?


(NB  -  I can't speak Manx let alone Welsh.  I'm simply taking northwalian's explanation at face value)

cp8759

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Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2024, 06:07:24 pm »
I'll draft something as soon as I get a chance, in the meantime here's The Council of the City and County of Swansea the Rotunda Carriageway Fronting the Guildhall Off-Street Parking Place Order Traffic Regulation Order 2019, I've not had a chance to look through it in detail yet, but one obvious issue is that the title of the order suggests it's an off-street car park and the code on the PCN is for an on-street contravention, and also the sign doesn't tell you that it's only for permit types G or M (and maybe if the sign said this it would have been clearer what the meaning is.

There is also the fact that the exemption at 20(f) allows any vehicle with a G or M permit to park, regardless of whether there is a disabled badge, which defeats the whole purpose of the restriction.
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order