Author Topic: Urgent help: Hammersmith 31j - yellow box contravention  (Read 196 times)

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vaibk

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Urgent help: Hammersmith 31j - yellow box contravention
« on: June 02, 2024, 01:07:43 pm »
Hi,

I got a PCN from the London borough of Hammersmith and Fulham regarding an alleged traffic contravention 31j: entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited - camera enforcement.

The alleged contravention happened on the 5th of May, and the notice was issued on the 22nd of May, so I need to challenge this in a day or two.

Here is the link to the PCN.

Here is the video (silver Mercedes stranded on the yellow box).

Here are the zoomed out and zoomed in images.

This is an incredibly big yellow box with poor lighting (under a bridge) which does impede the ability to see how far the box goes. It is apparently the most notorious yellow box in the country. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c6pm80g8p5zo

Here's the Google street view link: https://maps.app.goo.gl/hR4CoAU31jXRqm4h6

When I set out into the yellow box, there was clearly a space for me to exit the box on the other side. However, as I entered the box, someone cut in front of me and got into the space (evident from the video) leaving me stuck. I couldn't back my car to enter a different lane because of the traffic.

As another line of argument, I read up the rules and it says: you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right.

I would like to understand if it makes sense to challenge this, and if yes, how must I phrase my representation?
« Last Edit: June 02, 2024, 01:12:43 pm by vaibk »

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John U.K.

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Re: Urgent help: Hammersmith 31j - yellow box contravention
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2024, 01:22:30 pm »
The PCN is very difficult to read: please repost (all sides).

It can be argued that your exit was clear on your entry into the box.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2024, 01:27:29 pm by John U.K. »

vaibk

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Re: Urgent help: Hammersmith 31j - yellow box contravention
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2024, 01:33:30 pm »
Thank you.

I have attached all the three pages of the PCN.

John U.K.

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Re: Urgent help: Hammersmith 31j - yellow box contravention
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2024, 03:34:57 pm »
Thank you  - much clearer. You need to wait for the experts here to give their opinions and to check over the 'small print'. If you can get your reps in (use their online site) by the end of the discount period (midnight on Tuesday 4th) then H&F may well re-offer the discount if/when they refuse the reps..
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Pastmybest

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Re: Urgent help: Hammersmith 31j - yellow box contravention
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2024, 05:52:12 pm »
We used to win with the right turn argument but not recently as this is a gyratory system the cat taking your space is the strongest argument but in representations you need to make them all so the council can fail to consider them and give you another argument re that
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Dave Green

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Re: Urgent help: Hammersmith 31j - yellow box contravention
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2024, 06:09:25 pm »
the cat taking your space is the strongest argument
Just my opinion but I'd say that that the car in question was perfectly entitled to take the space they did and that the OP's car entered the box junction when their exit was already blocked.
IMO, the yellow lines show the routes that the cars should have taken: [ Guests cannot view attachments ]
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Hippocrates

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Re: Urgent help: Hammersmith 31j - yellow box contravention
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2024, 07:27:06 pm »
Try this:

Dear H and F

Ref: PCN                    VRM

I make these formal representations as follows:

1. When I set out into the yellow box, there was clearly a space for me to exit the box on the other side. However, as I entered the box, someone cut in front of me and got into the space (evident from the video) leaving me stuck. I couldn't back my car to enter a different lane because of the traffic.

2.  The PCN limits to one ground of representations whereas the law states otherwise.

In light of the above, please cancel the PCN as the contravention did not occur and the PCN is unenforceable.

Yours faithfully

Registered Keeper

Address

*************
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/2003/3/schedule/1/enacted

1(1) Do not spell it out to them. I have won a case on this.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2024, 07:29:38 pm by Hippocrates »
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ
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vaibk

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Re: Urgent help: Hammersmith 31j - yellow box contravention
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2024, 08:59:13 pm »
1(1) Do not spell it out to them. I have won a case on this.

Thank you so much. :)

I did not understand this footnote 1(1) referring to the first point in your representation. Should I reword the statement in the first para?

Also, should I include the link to the legislation itself in my representation?


cp8759

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Re: Urgent help: Hammersmith 31j - yellow box contravention
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2024, 12:14:27 am »
I did not understand this footnote 1(1) referring to the first point in your representation. Should I reword the statement in the first para?

Also, should I include the link to the legislation itself in my representation?
The last two lines after ***** is not part of the draft representation, that's something Hippocrates has added just as an FYI. What you will send to the council ends with your name and address after "Yours faithfully"

You definitely don't want to add a link to the legislation, it's up to the council to know the laws they purport to enforce.

Make sure to keep a screenshot of the confirmation page.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

vaibk

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Re: Urgent help: Hammersmith 31j - yellow box contravention
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2024, 12:37:12 am »
Thanks, I submitted this earlier today and as instructed (without the text after ***).

I didn't take a screenshot of what I wrote, but I do have an email from the council saying they got it (but it doesn't have what I wrote).

I guess I'll just have to wait and see what happens. I'm not very hopeful, but I figured I might as well try!

The Slithy Tove

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Re: Urgent help: Hammersmith 31j - yellow box contravention
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2024, 07:28:14 am »
I guess I'll just have to wait and see what happens. I'm not very hopeful, but I figured I might as well try!
Don't think for even a moment that they will accept those representations. They won't, so a rejection is inevitable.
It's all just a necessary step in the process towards adjudication.