3. Southwark - PCN Code 12
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Southwark - PCN Code 12
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Need your guidance on the following please.

My car went in for a service near the end of November 2024.  BMW issued me with a hire/courtesy car.   

Yesterday (24/01/2025) I received an email notification from the hire company together with a PCN (link below).


PCN:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WPka0mM-JbgWGNnDnCK-S4piIVWS2v4m/view?usp=sharing


The hire company have "made a representation to the issuer and transfer liability to you as the hirer of the vehicle. The PCN should then be reissued to you directly for resolution"

I am currently waiting for the PCN to be reissued by Southwark to my Ltd company.

This shouldn't make a difference to the matter, but whilst writing and for the sake of completeness, the car is leased to my Ltd company.  I am the company director.

Photographic evidence provide by the council is available here:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1EvL0KhHvucHRq4qABgySRilMRxrfEAhf?usp=sharing


Given the time that has lapsed, is the council out of time to issue the NTO?  Are their any other grounds to dispute this PCN please?


Thank you in advance for your guidance.

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« Last Edit: January 23, 2025, 07:07:20 pm by samosa »
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Re: Southwark - PCN Code 12
« Reply #1 on: »
In terms of timescales, the original PCN was served by a CEO to the car. There is then a period of 28 days for the PCN to be either paid or representations submitted. After expiry of this time period, the council can serve a Notice to Owner on the registered keeper of the car, which is the hire company. The hire company then have 28 days in which to submit reps on the basis of their being a hire company, naming your company as the hiring party on the date of the alleged contravention. The council, on receiving those reps, can then accept them and cancel the NtO and serve one on your company. They have 28 days from cancelling the first NtO to serve a second NtO.

The PCN was dated 24th November, so you can work out the approximate end date of the period within which they must serve an NtO on your company. At the moment, I don't think they are yet out-of-time.

You say you are expecting a PCN but it will be a Notice to Owner. May I assume the original PCN was never seen on the car ?

As for the possibility of grounds for a representation, the council photos show the car parked right next to the sign stating the bay is for permit holders only Mon-Sun 8.00am to 11.00pm. PCN is timed at 18.05, so well within the restricted period. A PCN is shown as on the car.

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Re: Southwark - PCN Code 12
« Reply #2 on: »
Quote from: Incandescent on January 23, 2025, 10:51:48 pm
In terms of timescales, the original PCN was served by a CEO to the car. There is then a period of 28 days for the PCN to be either paid or representations submitted. After expiry of this time period, the council can serve a Notice to Owner on the registered keeper of the car, which is the hire company. The hire company then have 28 days in which to submit reps on the basis of their being a hire company, naming your company as the hiring party on the date of the alleged contravention. The council, on receiving those reps, can then accept them and cancel the NtO and serve one on your company. They have 28 days from cancelling the first NtO to serve a second NtO.

The PCN was dated 24th November, so you can work out the approximate end date of the period within which they must serve an NtO on your company. At the moment, I don't think they are yet out-of-time.

You say you are expecting a PCN but it will be a Notice to Owner. May I assume the original PCN was never seen on the car ?

As for the possibility of grounds for a representation, the council photos show the car parked right next to the sign stating the bay is for permit holders only Mon-Sun 8.00am to 11.00pm. PCN is timed at 18.05, so well within the restricted period. A PCN is shown as on the car.


Thank you for explaining the process and time periods in which the notices are served.

You are absolutely correct in pointing out what you have referred to in respect of the the photos.  I cannot express how silly I feel for not seeing the "Permit Holders only" signage.  I saw the suspension notice and simply assumed it applied to pay & display.  But given the suspension dates were in the future, I thought I was ok to park given how late it was in the evening.  That is entirely my own error.

Whilst the photo clearly shows the ticket attached to the windscreen, what is odd, however, is that the ticket was not on the car when I returned to it.  Had I received it then, I would have been on this portal sooner.  I presume I have also lost out on the opportunity  to pay a discounted rate now that it is at NTO stage?    What would you suggest my options are now?

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Re: Southwark - PCN Code 12
« Reply #3 on: »
First of all you need an NtO in your company's name; only then can you submit representations. I suggest you mention that no PCN was found on the car, so you lost the opportunity to pay the discounted amount.

Don't forget that it they are very late serving the NtO, you may have the argument for Out-of-Time.
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Re: Southwark - PCN Code 12
« Reply #4 on: »
OP, you wrote:
My car went in for a service near the end of November 2024.  BMW issued me with a hire/courtesy car. 

So whether you may be considered to be the 'owner' for the purposes of enforcement (in other words liable for the penalty) is a matter of fact and law.

You can only be liable if you are the 'hirer' and only then if there is a 'hiring agreement'. Sorry for all the quotation marks but these are terms defined in law.

From a quick scan of your post, I would say that you cannot be liable as regards parking legislation because you did not hire the car. The 'hiring agreement' was between the registered keeper and BMW(possibly even an insurance company). The car was simply allocated to you to drive as a courtesy.

So, what paperwork do you have regarding 'BMW issued me with a hire/courtesy car'?
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Re: Southwark - PCN Code 12
« Reply #5 on: »
Ok here's the latest (interesting) update.....


I have (in the past few days) received the following PCN:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1llZvNfZjxA6xYO7dgfaJYFdm-X_OFaPk/view?usp=sharing


It appears that BMW/the hire company have provided my personal name & address - I presume because this is the only information they had on file.  However, the car is, in fact, leased by my Ltd Company (of which I am a company director). 

Since it is my LTD company which was the user of the vehicle at that time, I intend to submit a Representation that "I was not the owner of the vehicle at the time of the alleged contravention" together with my LTD company's details.   Is this the right thing to do?
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Re: Southwark - PCN Code 12
« Reply #6 on: »
Go tom their website and screenshot the payment status and report back please.
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I REGRET THAT, FOR THE PRESENT, I AM UNABLE TO TAKE ON ANY MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. THIS IS FOR BOTH PERSONAL AND LEGAL REASONS. PLEASE DO NOT PM ME UNLESS YOU HAVE POSTED YOUR THREAD ON THE FORUM AND I WILL ATTEMPT TO GIVE ADVICE.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"
Re: Southwark - PCN Code 12
« Reply #7 on: »
Quote from: Hippocrates on February 16, 2025, 09:19:55 pm
Go tom their website and screenshot the payment status and report back please.


Here is a link to the screenshot:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MgTJ7LnlDwO68R_rFNFeYpMoFQNBK6JH/view?usp=sharing

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Re: Southwark - PCN Code 12
« Reply #8 on: »
Excellent: a threat which will go against them! Stick it in the file. More than happy to deal with this one at the fifth set if necessary.

They are one of three with similar issues!  Just won one v Lambeth today.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2025, 09:58:49 pm by Hippocrates »
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I REGRET THAT, FOR THE PRESENT, I AM UNABLE TO TAKE ON ANY MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. THIS IS FOR BOTH PERSONAL AND LEGAL REASONS. PLEASE DO NOT PM ME UNLESS YOU HAVE POSTED YOUR THREAD ON THE FORUM AND I WILL ATTEMPT TO GIVE ADVICE.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"
Re: Southwark - PCN Code 12
« Reply #9 on: »
Do I proceed as I suggested it should I be doing something different?  Apologies for the naive question, how should I be responding to the local story authority?   
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Re: Southwark - PCN Code 12
« Reply #10 on: »

So here's the latest update.....

On 20/02/2025 I responded to Southwark with the following response:

"I was not the owner of the vehicle at the time the contravention occurred
Reason:  This vehicle has never been owned by me.  I am not the owner of the vehicle. It is a hire car rented to XXXX Ltd, of XXXX address"

The "reason" option was a pre-populated option and could not be amended - hence I was unable to remove the "hire car rented to" part of the line.  In place of the "XXXX" above I provided the details of my Ltd company.   

On 10/03/2025 Southwark replied by email with the following letter:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qipll7lAD_8Ovrj0H7aPUwzFgnaWSITc/view?usp=sharing

I am unable to provide a hire agreement they have requested because the vehicle in question was a courtesy car provided by my BMW dealership whilst my company car went in for a recall/maintenance issue.   However by the look of it, Southwark wont change the name on the PCN unless I give them what they want.

What shall I do now?


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Re: Southwark - PCN Code 12
« Reply #11 on: »
Quote from: Hippocrates on February 17, 2025, 09:57:01 pm
Excellent: a threat which will go against them! Stick it in the file. More than happy to deal with this one at the fifth set if necessary.

They are one of three with similar issues!  Just won one v Lambeth today.


So here's the latest update.....

On 20/02/2025 I responded to Southwark with the following response:

"I was not the owner of the vehicle at the time the contravention occurred
Reason:  This vehicle has never been owned by me.  I am not the owner of the vehicle. It is a hire car rented to XXXX Ltd, of XXXX address"

The "reason" option was a pre-populated option and could not be amended - hence I was unable to remove the "hire car rented to" part of the line.  In place of the "XXXX" above I provided the details of my Ltd company.   

On 10/03/2025 Southwark replied by email with the following letter:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qipll7lAD_8Ovrj0H7aPUwzFgnaWSITc/view?usp=sharing

I am unable to provide a hire agreement they have requested because the vehicle in question was a courtesy car provided by my BMW dealership whilst my company car went in for a recall/maintenance issue.   However by the look of it, Southwark wont change the name on the PCN unless I give them what they want.

What shall I do now?
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Re: Southwark - PCN Code 12
« Reply #12 on: »
Any suggestions anyone?  :-\
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Re: Southwark - PCN Code 12
« Reply #13 on: »
Has a Notice to Owner been issued and received?
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I REGRET THAT, FOR THE PRESENT, I AM UNABLE TO TAKE ON ANY MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. THIS IS FOR BOTH PERSONAL AND LEGAL REASONS. PLEASE DO NOT PM ME UNLESS YOU HAVE POSTED YOUR THREAD ON THE FORUM AND I WILL ATTEMPT TO GIVE ADVICE.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"
Re: Southwark - PCN Code 12
« Reply #14 on: »
Quote from: Hippocrates on March 15, 2025, 10:39:27 am
Has a Notice to Owner been issued and received?

The NTO addressed to me (in my personal name was received in Feb 2025.   I made the representation that I was not the owner of the vehicle at the time on their website and I provided my LTD company details as the party they should be addressing the PCN to.   Southwark replied to me on 20/02/2025 requesting an hire agreement (suggesting they will not readdress the NTO without this) which I am unable to provide for the reasons explained in my previous post.   I have yet to receive the NTO in my company name. 

What should I do?

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