3. Redbridge, Code 82, Parked after the expiry of paid for time, Station Road Chadwell Heath (Car Park 19)
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Ahmedyali

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Redbridge, Code 82, Parked after the expiry of paid for time, Station Road Chadwell Heath (Car Park 19)
« on: January 22, 2024, 12:05:54 pm »
Hi all,

I would really appreciate some advice, thank you.

TLDR: I accidentally paid for one hour parking only at 8:54am, within seconds realised my mistake, but the Ringgo app would not let me extend, and it kept giving me an error "Session already in progress and purchased very recently".

I decided I'll try again later, I was even thinking of setting my stopwatch but it bugged out, I then commuted to work, got busy at work and forgot. By the time I retried at 12:33pm, a few hours had passed.

I ended up paying for the full day just in case, but after work I came back to a pcn on my car.

So not only did I end up paying the 1 hr + full day's worth of car park, but I got a £40/£80 pcn to go with it.

I ended up getting an audit trail from Ringgo to show that I did try to buy an extension, but the app wouldn't let me.

Not sure if I should appeal and what I should write, or if I should just pay the reduced price of £40.

I've attached the audit trail and the pcn, please let me know if you need any further info. [ Guests cannot view attachments ]
« Last Edit: January 22, 2024, 12:07:27 pm by Ahmedyali »
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cp8759

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Re: Redbridge, Code 82, Parked after the expiry of paid for time, Station Road Chadwell Heath (Car Park 19)
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2024, 02:18:32 pm »
@Ahmedyali to be honest your best bet is to draft a short informal representation simply explaining what you've told us already.

Put a draft on here and we'll tidy it up for you. Please tag me in your reply.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

H C Andersen

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Re: Redbridge, Code 82, Parked after the expiry of paid for time, Station Road Chadwell Heath (Car Park 19)
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2024, 04:30:45 pm »
OP, you need to put this point to the authority in addition. 

Soon after purchasing my time, 1 hour, I became aware that I would in fact be away from the car park for much longer and therefore before even leaving the car park I tried to pay for a later expiry time.

However, the RingGo app would not permit this. I was prepared to forego the £1.60 I had already paid in order to avoid getting a penalty for £80. Would you please explain why this service provider does not allow this most basic of errors on a driver's part to be rectified immediately?

OP, I am just taking your account at face value. I don't know whether there were other payment methods available on site.
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Ahmedyali

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Re: Redbridge, Code 82, Parked after the expiry of paid for time, Station Road Chadwell Heath (Car Park 19)
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2024, 07:28:46 pm »
Quote from: H C Andersen on January 22, 2024, 04:30:45 pm
OP, you need to put this point to the authority in addition. 

Soon after purchasing my time, 1 hour, I became aware that I would in fact be away from the car park for much longer and therefore before even leaving the car park I tried to pay for a later expiry time.

However, the RingGo app would not permit this. I was prepared to forego the £1.60 I had already paid in order to avoid getting a penalty for £80. Would you please explain why this service provider does not allow this most basic of errors on a driver's part to be rectified immediately?

OP, I am just taking your account at face value. I don't know whether there were other payment methods available on site.

There is an option advertised on the car park board to pay by phone, but I was actually at home and paid before I travelled to the car park, to avoid forgetting to pay! On the app, it wouldn't let me extend, nor buy a new session. Honestly, I didn't know that payment by phone was even an option, it wasn't advertised to me on app, so I didn't try that.
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Ahmedyali

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Re: Redbridge, Code 82, Parked after the expiry of paid for time, Station Road Chadwell Heath (Car Park 19)
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2024, 07:33:51 pm »
@cp8759
Quote from: cp8759 on January 22, 2024, 02:18:32 pm
@Ahmedyali to be honest your best bet is to draft a short informal representation simply explaining what you've told us already.

Put a draft on here and we'll tidy it up for you. Please tag me in your reply.

Hi sir, I'm not sure if I've tagged you correctly, i'm assuming copying the quote tags you. Here is my draft:

Dear Redbridge council,

Soon after purchasing my time, 1 hour, I became aware that I would need to park for much longer and therefore immediately I tried to pay for a later expiry time.

However, the RingGo app would not permit this, and it kept giving me an error "Session already in progress and purchased very recently". I have attached an audit trail from RingGo themselves, which provides evidence that I tried to purchase an extension, but was denied by the app.

I was prepared to forego the £1.60 I had already paid in order to avoid getting a penalty for £80. Would you please explain why this service provider does not allow this most basic of errors on a driver's part to be rectified immediately?

I decided I'll try again later, I was even thinking of setting my stopwatch but it bugged out, I then commuted to work, got busy at work and forgot. By the time I retried at 12:33pm, a few hours had passed, and I ended up paying for the full day just in case.

On these points I would sincerely ask and plead that you exercise your powers of discretion in this instance and cancel this PCN.


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cp8759

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Re: Redbridge, Code 82, Parked after the expiry of paid for time, Station Road Chadwell Heath (Car Park 19)
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2024, 08:19:56 pm »
Yes for an informal representation that will do.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Ahmedyali

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Re: Redbridge, Code 82, Parked after the expiry of paid for time, Station Road Chadwell Heath (Car Park 19)
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2024, 05:31:42 pm »
Informal rep failed. They gave the same generic answer. What do you think? Would you think I've got strong evidence for a formal representation?

Thanks.

See attached
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Incandescent

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Re: Redbridge, Code 82, Parked after the expiry of paid for time, Station Road Chadwell Heath (Car Park 19)
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2024, 10:32:51 pm »
It's the usual Fob-Off letter that doesn't even mention the points in your reps. So it's up to you, pay them, or stand your ground and wait for the NtO.  If you do this, you accept the double-or-quits gamble that is adjudication.  I haven't seen a case on your circumstances before, indeed, I don't think any of the regulars have. NO doubt if somebody has, they'll come on here and tell us what transpired. So it's difficult to say what your chances would be at London Tribunals. However, I would have thought any half-decent parking app, would allow it to be extended to the maximum allowed even though the session was only just started.

See what the others say, but don't miss any deadlines if you decide to fold and cough-up.
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cp8759

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Re: Redbridge, Code 82, Parked after the expiry of paid for time, Station Road Chadwell Heath (Car Park 19)
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2024, 10:59:43 pm »
I would definitely carry on and wait for the notice to owner.

Are you the registered keeper and is the address on the V5C up to date?
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Ahmedyali

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Re: Redbridge, Code 82, Parked after the expiry of paid for time, Station Road Chadwell Heath (Car Park 19)
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2024, 01:51:32 pm »
Hi,

Received Notice to Owner two weeks ago, apologies for the late response. Need help formulating a representation - first time I'm attempting.

[Are you the registered keeper and is the address on the V5C up to date?][/quote]

No, I am the second driver on the car, my wife is the registered keeper, and yes, her address on the VC5 is up to date. Will this be an issue?

Attached is the picture of the Notice to Owner, all 4 sides.
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cp8759

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Re: Redbridge, Code 82, Parked after the expiry of paid for time, Station Road Chadwell Heath (Car Park 19)
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2024, 06:07:07 pm »
@Ahmedyali the formal representations must be made by your wife, or you can make them on her behalf if she gives you a letter of authority. This is because liability rests with the keeper, as the driver you have no right to challenge the notice to owner in your own right.

I can't really see that you can do anything aside from making the same formal representation again, do not miss the 28 day deadline whatever you do.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Ahmedyali

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Re: Redbridge, Code 82, Parked after the expiry of paid for time, Station Road Chadwell Heath (Car Park 19)
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2024, 04:44:31 pm »
Quote from: cp8759 on March 12, 2024, 06:07:07 pm
@Ahmedyali the formal representations must be made by your wife, or you can make them on her behalf if she gives you a letter of authority. This is because liability rests with the keeper, as the driver you have no right to challenge the notice to owner in your own right.

I can't really see that you can do anything aside from making the same formal representation again, do not miss the 28 day deadline whatever you do.

Would something like the following be ok for a letter of authority, and also do I submit that alongside my formal representation?

Furthermore, I think you meant same as informal representation rather than formal right?

Letter of authority:

Wife'f legal name
Address
March 15, 2024

To Whom It May Concern,

I, Wife's name, am the registered keeper of the vehicle with registration number EA12 NHZ. I hereby grant authority to My name, residing at My address, to act on my behalf in all matters related to the parking charge notice issued by Redbridge Council, reference number AF06931666.

This authority includes but is not limited to making formal representations, submitting any necessary documents, and communicating with the council regarding this matter.

This authorization is valid until the resolution of the PCN issue.

Sincerely,

[Wife's Signature]

[My Signature]
My name
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H C Andersen

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Re: Redbridge, Code 82, Parked after the expiry of paid for time, Station Road Chadwell Heath (Car Park 19)
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2024, 05:01:01 pm »

Wife'f legal name ??

This might just be your choice of words and that no substantive difference exists, however, for the avoidance of doubt..

The name and address to be used are those in the NTO because these are registered keeper's.
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Ahmedyali

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Re: Redbridge, Code 82, Parked after the expiry of paid for time, Station Road Chadwell Heath (Car Park 19)
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2024, 05:32:35 pm »
Hi sorry should have clarified, I redacted for the purposes of posting online, but will include real names as addressed on NTO and my legal name as wife is transferring authority

Quote from: H C Andersen on March 15, 2024, 05:01:01 pm

Wife'f legal name ??

This might just be your choice of words and that no substantive difference exists, however, for the avoidance of doubt..

The name and address to be used are those in the NTO because these are registered keeper's.
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Hippocrates

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Re: Redbridge, Code 82, Parked after the expiry of paid for time, Station Road Chadwell Heath (Car Park 19)
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2024, 07:56:40 pm »
I would add this supplementary point to test their response:

The wording of the PCN in terms of the 28 days period is wrong since it does not comply with Schedule 2 para. 2 @  https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/71/schedule/2

(d)that the penalty charge must be paid within the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the alleged contravention occurred,

In light of this procedural impropriety please cancel the PCN.
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There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

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