Author Topic: Redbridge - Cambridge Park - 31J Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited  (Read 1820 times)

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This it is unless someone suggests necessary changes.

I refer to my formal representation to the Redbridge:
1)   The location stated on the PCN is vague. Cambridge Park is almost a kilometre long with 10 road junctions along its length. I believe this does not adequately convey the location of the alleged contravention.

2)   The YBJ extends beyond the bounds of the intersection of the two roads.

I refer you to:
TSRGD 2016 Section 11
      (6) For the purposes of this paragraph “box junction” means an area of the carriageway where the marking has been placed and which is –
       (a) at a junction between two or more roads

A junction is typically defined as the intersection of the outside edge of the first highway with the outside edge of the second highway.

I refer you to a recent Tribunal case relating to the same location:
Case ref 2230267259 in which Adjudicator Mr Harman states:

‘I was satisfied on the council's online footage of the incident, which I viewed, that this box was marked well beyond the junction shown thereon it thus not I find being marked at the junction of two roads as required under The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions (TSRGD) 2016.’

The Council’s own evidence (YBJ Construction Drawing) clearly shows the box extending metres beyond the confines of the junction where the two roads intersect. Extended lines from the kerbs of each road define a much smaller area. I have included below a copy of the construction drawing with the kerb lines of Blake Hall Road extended to show the true boundary of this road junction.

Further to the formal representation made to the council I wish to add the following:
The set back of the stop line in Blake Hall Road makes it impossible to see the extent of traffic in Cambridge Park and the end of the overly long box junction.

The Redbridge video evidence shows an overhead perspective but does not convey the view of the driver. The junction is particularly busy at this time. The constant traffic filtering left from Cambridge Park into Blake Hall Road is a distraction and obscures the view of the exit after you pass the stop line.

On passing the stop line there was a cyclist stationary inside the YBJ. From the driver perspective it gives the impression they are outside the box junction. The cyclist is definitely outside the intersection of the two roads.
The vehicle in front of our vehicle had completed its right turn and had exited the junction of Cambridge Park and Blake Hall Road giving the impression that the exit was clear.

Even the professional driver behind has made a decision to enter their bus into the box junction, then having to stop. I believe this is because the box junction is extended beyond the confines of the actual road junction. 

Furthermore, the driver entered the YBJ from Blake Hall Road to turn right into Cambridge Park

The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions (TSRGD) 2016 states.

Box junctions
11.—(1) Subject to sub-paragraphs (2), (3) and (4), the yellow criss-cross marking provided for at item 25 of the sign table in Part 6 conveys the prohibition that a person must not cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.
  (2) Subject to sub-paragraph (4) the marking when placed as a box junction within sub-paragraph (6)(c) of the definition of that expression conveys the prohibition that a person must not cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of oncoming vehicles or other stationary vehicles beyond the box junction.
  (3) The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) does not, in respect of a box junction within sub-paragraph (6)(a) of the definition of that expression, apply to a person who—
    (a)causes a vehicle to enter the box junction for the purpose of turning right; and
    (b)stops the vehicle within the box junction for so long as the vehicle is prevented from completing the right turn by an oncoming vehicle or other vehicle which is stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn.

Issues with the Notice of Rejection

In my formal representation to Redbridge I have clearly stated grounds of 1) vague location and 2) the box extending beyond the confines of the junction, i.e., the intersection of the two roads. These were the primary grounds mentioned in the formal representation.
 
In the Council’s Notice of Rejection, in spite of their ‘careful consideration of the details provided’ neither of these significant grounds were adequately acknowledged or addressed. This is a Procedural Impropriety.

Only in the Summary of Council’s Representation for this appeal is there reference to the vague location. The council admit it is not an exact location and have somehow satisfied themselves that the appellant knew the location referred to in the PCN. However, they completely failed to mention vague location in the Notice of Rejection.

The Council state in the NoR that the box is compliant with TSRGD 2016 because ‘the sides of the box are approximately at right angles to the flow of traffic’. This has no relevance to the definition of a junction and whether the box fits within the confines of the intersection of the two roads, which it clearly does not. I believe this is another failure to ‘carefully consider’ the representation and adequately address the points raised.

The Council fail to mention in the NoR that the box junction prohibition does not apply to vehicles entering the box junction to turn right, as in this case.

Other
Finally, the Council have included Secretary of State approval for a CCTV camera in a letter dated 15th May 2023 – presumably the camera at the junction of Cambridge Park and Blake Hall Road? The approved enforcement types in this letter clearly state ‘Parking and Bus Lane only.’ As this is neither a parking or bus lane contravention I believe this camera is not approved for a box junction contravention and the Council’s video evidence is inadmissible.

END



My comments are more about style than content - any of the latter I've marked in blue.
Style - don't be afraid to use bold, italic, underline, &c. to make it easier for the Adj. to read - who will not see it until the day. I've done a few (not all needed) to give you the idea.


Quote
I refer to my formal representation to the Redbridge:

1)   The location stated on the PCN is vague. Cambridge Park is almost a kilometre long with 10 road junctions along its length. I believe this does not adequately convey the location of the alleged contravention.


2)   The YBJ extends beyond the bounds of the intersection of the two roads.


I refer you to:

TSRGD 2016 Section 11
     
Quote
(6) For the purposes of this paragraph “box junction” means an area of the carriageway where the marking has been placed and which is –

       (a) at a junction between two or more roads


A junction is typically defined as the intersection of the outside edge of the first highway with the outside edge of the second highway.

I refer you to a recent Tribunal case relating to the same location:
Case ref 2230267259 in which Adjudicator Mr Harman states:

‘I was satisfied on the council's online footage of the incident, which I viewed, that this box was marked well beyond the junction shown thereon it thus not I find being marked at the junction of two roads as required under The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions (TSRGD) 2016.’

The Council’s own evidence (YBJ Construction Drawing- see below/attached) clearly shows the box extending metres beyond the confines of the junction where the two roads intersect. Extended lines from the kerbs of each road define a much smaller area. I have included below a copy of the construction drawing with the kerb lines of Blake Hall Road extended to show the true boundary of this road junction.

Further to the formal representation made to the council I wish to add the following:
The set back of the stop line in Blake Hall Road makes it impossible to see the extent of traffic in Cambridge Park and the end of the overly long box junction.

The Redbridge video evidence shows an overhead perspective but does not convey the view of the driver. The junction is particularly busy at this time. The constant traffic filtering left from Cambridge Park into Blake Hall Road is a distraction and obscures the view of the exit after you pass the stop line.

On passing the stop line there was a cyclist stationary inside the YBJ. From the driver perspective it gives the impression they are outside the box junction. The cyclist is definitely outside the intersection of the two roads.
The vehicle in front of our vehicle had completed its right turn and had exited the junction of Cambridge Park and Blake Hall Road giving the impression that the exit was clear.

Even the professional driver behind has made a decision to enter their bus into the box junction, then having to stop. I believe this is because the box junction is extended beyond the confines of the actual road junction. 

Furthermore, the driver entered the YBJ from Blake Hall Road to turn right into Cambridge Park

The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions (TSRGD) 2016 states.

Box junctions
11.—(1) Subject to sub-paragraphs (2), (3) and (4), the yellow criss-cross marking provided for at item 25 of the sign table in Part 6 conveys the prohibition that a person must not cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.
  (2) Subject to sub-paragraph (4) the marking when placed as a box junction within sub-paragraph (6)(c) of the definition of that expression conveys the prohibition that a person must not cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of oncoming vehicles or other stationary vehicles beyond the box junction.
  (3) The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) does not, in respect of a box junction within sub-paragraph (6)(a) of the definition of that expression, apply to a person who—
    (a)causes a vehicle to enter the box junction for the purpose of turning right; and
    (b)stops the vehicle within the box junction for so long as the vehicle is prevented from completing the right turn by an oncoming vehicle or other vehicle which is stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn.


3) Issues with the Notice of Rejection


In my formal representation to Redbridge I have clearly stated grounds of 1) vague location and 2) the box extending beyond the confines of the junction, i.e., the intersection of the two roads. These were the primary grounds mentioned in the formal representation.
 
In the Council’s Notice of Rejection, in spite of their ‘careful consideration of the details provided’ neither of these significant grounds were adequately acknowledged or addressed. This is a Procedural Impropriety.

Only in the Summary of Council’s Representation for this appeal is there reference to the vague location.  The council admit it is not an exact location and have somehow satisfied themselves that the appellant knew the location referred to in the PCN.[Put in the quotation from the summary which justifies this assertion.] However, they completely failed to mention vague location in the Notice of Rejection.

The Council state in the NoR that the box is compliant with TSRGD 2016 because ‘the sides of the box are approximately at right angles to the flow of traffic’. This has no relevance to the definition of a junction and whether the box fits within the confines of the intersection of the two roads, which it clearly does not. I believe this is another failure to ‘carefully consider’ the representation and adequately address the points raised.

The Council fail to mention in the NoR that the box junction prohibition does not apply to vehicles entering the box junction to turn right, as in this case.

4) Other
Finally, the Council have included Secretary of State approval for a CCTV camera in a letter dated 15th May 2023 – presumably the camera at the junction of Cambridge Park and Blake Hall Road? The approved enforcement types in this letter clearly state ‘Parking and Bus Lane only.’ As this is neither a parking or bus lane contravention I believe this camera is not approved for a box junction contravention and the Council’s video evidence is inadmissible.

END


Good advice John. I've tarted it up to emphasise specific sections and phrases.

Have you included the quote about 'The council admit it is not an exact location and have somehow satisfied themselves that the appellant knew the location referred to in the PCN.'?

Have you included the quote about 'The council admit it is not an exact location and have somehow satisfied themselves that the appellant knew the location referred to in the PCN.'?

Yes I have. As follows:

Quote
Only in the Summary of Council’s Representation for this appeal is there reference to the vague location. The council admit it is not an exact location and have somehow satisfied themselves that the appellant knew the location referred to in the PCN. However, they completely failed to mention vague location in the Notice of Rejection.

Glitch, you need to quote the Council's words after this fashion:

Only in the Summary of Council’s Representation for this appeal is there reference to the vague location. The council admit it is not an exact location and have somehow satisfied themselves that the appellant knew the location referred to in the PCN.
"I have noted the appellants comments however this is not a valid reason to cancel the PCN. I am satisfied that the PCN clearly gives the name of the contravention. A contravention code is not required. Whilst the exact location is not on the PCN the still images clearly show the appellants vehicle stopped in the Box Junction in Cambridge Park. I am satisfied the appellant knew where this was and was not misled."
However, they completely failed to mention vague location in the Notice of Rejection.

I wouldn't bother with their error re the camera certificate as it doesn't apply anyway to this legislation. That point is not a winner I am afraid.
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Glitch, you need to quote the Council's words after this fashion:

Only in the Summary of Council’s Representation for this appeal is there reference to the vague location. The council admit it is not an exact location and have somehow satisfied themselves that the appellant knew the location referred to in the PCN.
"I have noted the appellants comments however this is not a valid reason to cancel the PCN. I am satisfied that the PCN clearly gives the name of the contravention. A contravention code is not required. Whilst the exact location is not on the PCN the still images clearly show the appellants vehicle stopped in the Box Junction in Cambridge Park. I am satisfied the appellant knew where this was and was not misled."
However, they completely failed to mention vague location in the Notice of Rejection.

Thanks John.

I assume this is a personal hearing?
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

I wouldn't bother with their error re the camera certificate as it doesn't apply anyway to this legislation. That point is not a winner I am afraid.

I wouldn't have put it in had Redbridge not provided the Secretary of State approval letter in their evidence. I didn't ask for it and I hadn't raised it in the reps.
However, as it does state 'Parking and Bus Lanes only' I thought I'd throw it in at the end, just in case all other grounds fall on deaf ears.
Hopefully something will stick before we get to the end. Bit of a kitchen sink approach.

Extending beyond the junction has worked in a previous appeal.
Vague Location is a gamble but the fact they ignored it in the NoR then admitted it is not exact opens up the biggest opportunity for success in the Tribunal Lottery.

I assume this is a personal hearing?

Yes it is.

ETA Register of Appeals
Register Kept Under Regulation 20 of the Road Traffic (Parking Adjudicators)(London) Regulations 1993, as amended or Paragraph 21 of the Schedule to the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) Representations and Appeals Regulations 2007, as applicable
Case Details
Case reference   2060381000
Appellant   Gina Adamou
Authority   London Borough of Haringey
VRM   Y733GVX
PCN Details
PCN   HY72193896
Contravention date   05 Jul 2006
Contravention time   16:17:00
Contravention location   High Road N22
Penalty amount   GBP 100.00
Contravention   Entering and stopping in a box junction
Referral date   
Decision Date   21 Oct 2006
Adjudicator   Hugh Cooper
Appeal decision   Appeal allowed
Direction   cancel the Penalty Charge Notice.
Reasons   The contravention alleged is entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited. The prohibition is contained in the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002, Schedule 19 Part 2 paragraph 7. This provides as follows.



"7 (1) Except when placed in the circumstances described in paragraph 8, [box junctions] shall each convey the prohibition that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.

(2) The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) does not apply to any person

(a)who causes a vehicle to enter the box junction (other than a box junction at a roundabout) for the purpose of turning right: and

(b)stops it within the box junction for so long as it is prevented from completing the right turn by oncoming vehicles or other vehicles which are stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn."



In this case the Council served a Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) on Mrs Adamou alleging that the vehicle of which she was the registered keeper had contravened this regulation "in High Road N22".



Mrs Adamou says that she telephoned the Council on receipt of the PCN and asked them about this contravention. She was told that it had taken place at the junction of Ewart Grove and High Road N22. She pointed out to the person she spoke to that there was no box junction at that location. When the Council served photographs with their Notice of Rejection they made no mention of Ewart Grove.



The Council finally stated in their Case Summary that the box junction is actually at the junction of High Road and Bounds Green Road; the junction with Ewart Grove is simply where the camera is located. In a letter subsequent to her Notice of Appeal Mrs Adamou argues as to whether or not the events recorded on the video recording actually amount to a contravention.



However I do not have to decide that issue, because the confusion that has evidently arisen in Mrs Adamou's communications with the Council clearly demonstrates that the original PCN failed to comply with the requirements of Section 4(8)(a)(i) of the London Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003. This provides that the PCN "must…state…the grounds on which the council… believe that the penalty charge is payable with respect to the vehicle".



The Council's own evidence shows that they have no fewer than 9 cameras in High Road N22, 6 of which are located at junctions. Whether or not all are devoted to monitoring compliance with box junctions, it makes clear that this is a long road with a considerable number of junctions. It is evident from Mrs Adamou's case that she did not know on receipt of the PCN where the contravention was alleged to have occurred.



Had the PCN specified "High Road N22 at its junction with Bounds Green Road", then Mrs Adamou would have known where to look. As it was, by simply stating "in High Road N22", I find that the PCN did not state the grounds on which the Council believed that the penalty charge was payable. Those grounds must be expressed in terms that allow the recipient of a PCN to know not just the nature of the alleged contravention, but where it was said to have occurred.



I find therefore that no valid PCN was served on Mrs Adamou, and so the Council cannot enforce this penalty charge.



[I would add that there is considerable doubt in my mind as to whether the layout of the box junction markings in this case actually comply with the requirements of Diagrams 1043 or 1044 in Schedule 6 to the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002, neither of which appears to allow for box junction markings opposite the mouth of a T-junction, as opposed to across it. Furthermore it appears that there is a right turn filter lane on the main road, so that the box junction markings only cover one lane. However I do not make a formal determination on this issue. It maybe that in future cases the Council will feel the need, and be able, to clarify how this layout complies with either of the diagrams.]
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Many thanks.

I'm trying to make sense of Chapter 5 Traffic Signs (Road Marking)  Section 8 YBJs, specifically 8.4 - Setting Out

I sort of understand why the council are going on about lines at right angles to traffic flow, but that's not enough IMO.

Even if the box bottom corners were redrawn to be touching the apex of the curved highway (like figure 8-6) then the current box still extends beyond that. There is a wide radius on those corners that makes it more difficult for them.

Not sure how that went. Teresa Brennan was adjudicator. Not easy to deal with but hopefully I got the message across. She hadn't read the evidence in enough detail. Main thing was to look at our Representation and then read the NoR which she just skimmed and seemed to misinterpret. Had to repeat key points several times until she appeared to understand.

No decision from her at the time. She says she send it through by close today or early tomorrow. She did take note of a couple of cases nd said she' have a look.

May have fallen for a trick question - If the EA had considered your representation would you have paid or would you still be here?

She initially said the Mersey bridge case didn't apply but after me saying 'completely failed to consider' a few times she made a note of that.

Hopefully, the penny will drop when she carefully reads the documents and cases. At least she hasn't dismissed it out of hand.



Appeal refused  :-\

Case Ref: 2230385313

The NoR is a joke. She believes that Redbridge 'carefully considered' the representation  ::)
The GSV didn't help as it was out of date although I didn't use that in the appeal, only the reps.


Lessons learnt from this one.

You need a big slice of luck.

In my limited experience of appearing at a handful of Tribunals I find the Adjudicators are adversarial and definitely lean toward the EA's side when it comes to balance of probability. They look at the video and if you've stopped in the box you are banged to rights and it's very hard work to persuade them otherwise. EA's need to be incredibly incompetent for them to lose an appeal.

Vague Location is very flimsy if there is only one YBJ on the named road. They'll say you've worked it out so what's the problem?

YBJ extending beyond the junction might work in some cases but not at this location. Find a legally compelling definition of a junction!
Use previous decisions but unless there is an overwhelming number there's slim chance it will influence another Adjudicator.

The right turn rule does not apply at a T junction. It needs oncoming traffic for someone to cause you to stop. This comes up in many cases and they nearly always fail. The law is a little vague (IMO) but it's not worth the gamble.

Even a dismissive, nonsense NoR is allowed. If it says the EA has 'carefully considered' the representations, then they are believed.
Citing High Court decisions is tough without some extra expertise and the ability to argue why it should stick.

There's always the possibility that I failed to present the appeal well and there's always room for improvement but if you read the reps and the NoR I can't see how anyone would believe it was carefully considered.

It's a busy, badly laid out box compounded by drivers who don't know the rules. 3-4 appeals per month for this box shows it's a problem.