3. Redbridge - 31J - PCN - stopping at box junction
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Re: Redbridge - 31J - PCN - stopping at box junction
« Reply #15 on: »
Quote from: bigred247 on August 02, 2023, 09:17:43 pm
Any advice?
Call the tribunal first thing on Monday and, if the case hasn't been decided already, change it to a personal hearing.

Postal decisions are to be avoided at all costs, for the reasons made obvious here.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Redbridge - 31J - PCN - stopping at box junction
« Reply #16 on: »
Thank you all for the feedback. I was travelling abroad so I apologise for the late response.

I have already spoken with London Tribunals and have requested a hearing via phone call for Tuesday 15th August @ 10 am (next week). I suspect I may get asked some questions during the hearing. I've never requested a hearing in person before, so any advice on how to handle this?

Thanks.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2023, 09:45:17 am by bigred247 »
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Re: Redbridge - 31J - PCN - stopping at box junction
« Reply #17 on: »
Any advice?
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Re: Redbridge - 31J - PCN - stopping at box junction
« Reply #18 on: »
@bigred247 the tribunal lets you postpone a case by up to 28 days, no questions asked, so you could have given us almost a month to look at this. Instead you  bought yourself less than a week?

At this point there's nothing I can say other than to suggest you argue your case as best you can based on what members have said.

And next time, give yourself enough time to prepare your case properly rather than only giving yourself 3 or 4 days.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Redbridge - 31J - PCN - stopping at box junction
« Reply #19 on: »
I get involved in a lot of yellow box cases and your best shot here is to argue the four points I originally outlined, namely (in order of strength):

1) The council's evidence doesn't actually show your point of entry into the box, and that's when the offence actually occurs as per the way the regulations are drafted.  There is a key case on the London Tribunals website which covers this precise point.  This is your strongest ground and the one you should argue hardest for.  If you want me to direct you to the key case so you can refer to it at the hearing let me know.  EDIT - here it is https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/default/files/keycases/Place%20Invaders%20Ltd.doc

2) Less strong but still worth arguing is the vague location argument.  This has won before but is likely to depend on which adjudicator you get.  Again let me know if you want me to dig out a previous case where this has won.  EDIT - see this thread http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=149002&st=0

3) De minimis - in my view unlikely to win but worth mentioning as your stop is pretty brief.

4) Turning right exemption.  This shouldn't win as the exemption only applies when you are forced to wait in the box for a gap in oncoming traffic - there is no oncoming traffic here.  But you never know - you don't ask you don't get!
« Last Edit: August 14, 2023, 08:10:29 pm by MrChips »
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Re: Redbridge - 31J - PCN - stopping at box junction
« Reply #20 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on August 14, 2023, 06:33:24 pm
@bigred247 the tribunal lets you postpone a case by up to 28 days, no questions asked, so you could have given us almost a month to look at this. Instead you  bought yourself less than a week?

At this point there's nothing I can say other than to suggest you argue your case as best you can based on what members have said.

And next time, give yourself enough time to prepare your case properly rather than only giving yourself 3 or 4 days.

Apologies. Point noted. Will ask for a later hearing in future to allow for more advice here.
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Re: Redbridge - 31J - PCN - stopping at box junction
« Reply #21 on: »
Quote from: MrChips on August 14, 2023, 08:00:59 pm
I get involved in a lot of yellow box cases and your best shot here is to argue the four points I originally outlined, namely (in order of strength):

1) The council's evidence doesn't actually show your point of entry into the box, and that's when the offence actually occurs as per the way the regulations are drafted.  There is a key case on the London Tribunals website which covers this precise point.  This is your strongest ground and the one you should argue hardest for.  If you want me to direct you to the key case so you can refer to it at the hearing let me know.  EDIT - here it is https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/default/files/keycases/Place%20Invaders%20Ltd.doc

2) Less strong but still worth arguing is the vague location argument.  This has won before but is likely to depend on which adjudicator you get.  Again let me know if you want me to dig out a previous case where this has won.  EDIT - see this thread http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=149002&st=0

3) De minimis - in my view unlikely to win but worth mentioning as your stop is pretty brief.

4) Turning right exemption.  This shouldn't win as the exemption only applies when you are forced to wait in the box for a gap in oncoming traffic - there is no oncoming traffic here.  But you never know - you don't ask you don't get!


Thanks again for the summary and the case notes. I'll stick to the points mentioned above and will post the outcome here for the benefit of all.
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Re: Redbridge - 31J - PCN - stopping at box junction
« Reply #22 on: »
@cp8759
@MrChips
I just spoke with the adjudicator and he agreed with @MrChips’ first point concerning the “The council's evidence doesn't actually show your point of entry into the box” and has agreed to accept the appeal and will be cancelling the PCN. Just waiting for a confirmation in writing now. @cp8759 the in-person hearing most definitely made a difference :)
Thank you both very much for your assistance with this.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2023, 10:29:23 am by bigred247 »
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Re: Redbridge - 31J - PCN - stopping at box junction
« Reply #23 on: »
Excellent news.  This aspect was clear from the very start (in spite of a few other comments implying that this might be a difficult one to win  ;) ).
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Re: Redbridge - 31J - PCN - stopping at box junction
« Reply #24 on: »
This is excellent news, very well done.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Redbridge - 31J - PCN - stopping at box junction
« Reply #25 on: »
Just posting the response from the adjudicator here for the benefit of all:

Adjudicator's Decision
The adjudicator, having considered the evidence submitted by the parties, has allowed the appeal.
The reasons for the adjudicator's decision are enclosed.

The adjudicator directs London Borough of Redbridge to cancel the Penalty Charge Notice.

If any penalty or fees have already been paid, the Enforcement Authority must now issue a refund without
delay. Enquiries regarding payment of the refund should be made to the Enforcement Authority.

Adjudicator's Reasons
The appellant appeared before me today via telephone. The contravention alleged in these
proceedings was that this vehicle entered and stopped in a box junction when prohibited. Upon the
appellant making a submission on the point: the council's online footage of the incident, which I
viewed, opened with the vehicle already inside the box. It did not therefore show its entry to it and I
was not satisfied that being so that the contravention had been proved.
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