3. Redbridge - 31J - PCN - stopping at box junction
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Redbridge - 31J - PCN - stopping at box junction
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hey folks,

re: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=150254

I received the attached PCN through the post. One of the chaps on the old forum posted a draft for representations but i do not recall the points that were made and nor can i access the cached page.

Any advice concerning this PCN?

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Re: Redbridge - 31J - PCN - stopping at box junction
« Reply #1 on: »
I didn't see this thread on the old forum but the only thing that springs to mind is de-minimis, as it's quite a short stop. On the other hand you did obstruct the lane so I'm not sure I'd take this one to adjudication.

You might want to get a representation in quite sharpish to preserve the discount.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Redbridge - 31J - PCN - stopping at box junction
« Reply #2 on: »
@cp8759 As always, thank you for your valuable insight. I fear you may be right. And, I've now missed the discount, as I was pulled into some late-night work and time flew past.

Seeing as I have missed the deadline for the discount, no harm in getting some more feedback/input here I suppose?

Another chap mentioned the "de-minimis" argument on the OP. He wrote a draft challenge appeal letter and wanted it to be reviewed by others, but I can't recall the detail and arguments.
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Re: Redbridge - 31J - PCN - stopping at box junction
« Reply #3 on: »
If you've missed the discount you might as well give yourself the full 28 days (from the date of service) to make representations, your deadline is midnight on 29 June.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Redbridge - 31J - PCN - stopping at box junction
« Reply #4 on: »
It was probably me that drafted something for you - I tend to get involved in most of the yellow box cases.  I'll try and recreate it if so, but if pepipoo is no longer accessible I guess I'll have to start from scratch?

Is this the one where you entered the box to turn right and stopped only for a couple of seconds?

If so there were three strands:
1) Video didn't show you entering the box
2) De minimis
3) Turning right

Does that sound right?

Looking at your PCN, there's also a fourth argument - the location just states "Barley Lane" but Barley Lane is 1.5 miles long with more than one box junction along it.  You therefore have a case that the PCN doesn't adequately state the contravention it is accusing you of.

PS - logging onto your PCN just now, it looks like the discount hasn't expired (councils tend to give you a few days extension) so suggest submitting something asap.  I'm busy at work this afternoon but I might be able to do something tomorrow morning.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2023, 03:03:36 pm by MrChips »
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Re: Redbridge - 31J - PCN - stopping at box junction
« Reply #5 on: »
Seems pepipoo is back up and running so suggest you revert back to that thread...
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Re: Redbridge - 31J - PCN - stopping at box junction
« Reply #6 on: »
@MrChips. That is right concerning the description of the events that took place. I'm glad to hear to the original forum is back up :) Speak there.
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Re: Redbridge - 31J - PCN - stopping at box junction
« Reply #7 on: »
Quote from: MrChips on June 16, 2023, 09:12:53 am
Seems pepipoo is back up and running so suggest you revert back to that thread...
Just FYI we're encouraging people to stick to ftla, for the reasons explained here: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=150302&view=findpost&p=1783532
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Redbridge - 31J - PCN - stopping at box junction
« Reply #8 on: »
Hey folks,

Per suggestion, I am adding updates to this PCN on this forum.

I have received a letter from Redbridge council and they wish to contest this PCN and have supplied there supporting evidence. Please note due to an issue with CamScanner, the received letter had to be split into 2 separate PDF files. The links are below:


https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tfDyxy1HZo1kPw6RBE8CSAXpIqXJAD95/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1eUzUcPgvvIi0UCef_dSombq1_FTmXjfw/view?usp=sharing

Any advice?

Thanks.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2023, 09:20:25 pm by bigred247 »
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Re: Redbridge - 31J - PCN - stopping at box junction
« Reply #9 on: »
I'm sorry to say that looking at the video:



I can't see any arguable grounds. Someone else might think of something though.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Redbridge - 31J - PCN - stopping at box junction
« Reply #10 on: »
de minimis seems the best shot
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Re: Redbridge - 31J - PCN - stopping at box junction
« Reply #11 on: »
It's stretching it and TBH, De Minimis may be the better way to go but arguably, you did not stop for stationary vehicles.
You were creeping across, intending to carry on straight, behind the grey vehicle so as to clear the box.
But the black vehicle to your left did not give way so forced you to stop...and was not a stationary vehicle at that point.
The point being that you did not have to stop due to stationary vehicles but due to a moving one.

TBH, I suspect an adjudicator would disregard or reason that the queue you were trying to join was stationary and forcing your way in, relying on the goodwill of others counted.
But council could muck up their answer or ignore?
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Re: Redbridge - 31J - PCN - stopping at box junction
« Reply #12 on: »
Quote from: DancingDad on August 02, 2023, 10:07:06 pm
But council could muck up their answer or ignore?
Bigred247 is already at the tribunal stage.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Redbridge - 31J - PCN - stopping at box junction
« Reply #13 on: »
Quote from: DancingDad on August 02, 2023, 10:07:06 pm
It's stretching it and TBH, De Minimis may be the better way to go but arguably, you did not stop for stationary vehicles.
You were creeping across, intending to carry on straight, behind the grey vehicle so as to clear the box.
But the black vehicle to your left did not give way so forced you to stop...and was not a stationary vehicle at that point.
The point being that you did not have to stop due to stationary vehicles but due to a moving one.

TBH, I suspect an adjudicator would disregard or reason that the queue you were trying to join was stationary and forcing your way in, relying on the goodwill of others counted.
But council could muck up their answer or ignore?

Well worth the argument as it leads into the de minimis in any event
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Re: Redbridge - 31J - PCN - stopping at box junction
« Reply #14 on: »
Why can't we run the "video doesn't show point of entry" argument?

Plus vague locus as per the representations I drafted originally?
« Last Edit: August 03, 2023, 11:44:30 pm by MrChips »
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