3. Redbridge, 31J, PCN, Barley Lane - Stopping in a box junction
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EagerBeaver

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Redbridge, 31J, PCN, Barley Lane - Stopping in a box junction
« on: June 05, 2024, 03:48:35 pm »
Hi all,

Unfortunately I fell prey to a box junction outside work the other day, wasn't concentrating and got caught out.

However, have done some reading around the topic and can see that similar cases have been won at tribunal on the grounds that the video does not show 'point of entry' to the box junction. As you can see from my video the car is already inside the box junction at the time the video starts recording, and as such does not establish the point of entry.

Furthermore the surname is spelled incorrectly on the PCN - not sure if this is relevant?

Would be eternally grateful for advice and appropriate wording of a representation.



VIDEO:
https://youtu.be/TqPljRJ891g

Streetview:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/TjJ5sz9mXFUwivBj9
(might not be that helpful, as street view shows when road was previously marked as Keep Clear not a box junction)

Kindest regards,
Ryan.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2024, 04:59:13 pm by EagerBeaver »
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John U.K.

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Re: Redbridge, 31J, PCN, Barley Lane - Stopping in a box junction
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2024, 04:23:33 pm »
You need to set the video to sharing/public.
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EagerBeaver

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Re: Redbridge, 31J, PCN, Barley Lane - Stopping in a box junction
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2024, 04:45:23 pm »
Quote from: John U.K. on June 05, 2024, 04:23:33 pm
You need to set the video to sharing/public.

Apologies, should be visible now!
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Incandescent

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Re: Redbridge, 31J, PCN, Barley Lane - Stopping in a box junction
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2024, 08:43:39 pm »
The video starts with your car already fully in the box, so that is a clear point for any appeal argument.
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MrChips

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Re: Redbridge, 31J, PCN, Barley Lane - Stopping in a box junction
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2024, 09:52:51 pm »
Definitely major on the video not showing the entry into the box.  Another appeal point is the PCN stating only 'Barley Lane' as the location.  That's over 1 mile long with more than one box junction along it so it's not specific enough as to where they allege the contravention to have taken place.
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Hippocrates

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Re: Redbridge, 31J, PCN, Barley Lane - Stopping in a box junction
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2024, 11:53:57 pm »
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/redbridge-george-lane-31j-stopping-in-a-box-junction-when-prohibited/

Okay, let's not muck about here! No point in even pursuing vague locus as per the OP's first post. The YBJ was known.

Dear Redbridge

Ref: PCN                  VRM             

The contravention did not occur because the video does not show my vehicle at the point of entry.

Should you not cancel the PCN forthwith, I shall take the matter to the Tribunal and be seeking costs.

Please take the eminently sensible decision to cancel the said PCN.

Yours faithfully

Registered keeper

Address


If they resist, I am happy to take charge of this one for you at the Tribunal having won one v Kingston a few months ago on the same issue.

ETA Register of Appeals

Register kept under Regulation 20 of the Road Traffic (Parking Adjudicators) (London) Regulations 1993, as amended and Regulation 17 of the Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (England) Regulations 2022.
Case Details
Case reference 2240040646
Appellant Louisa Symons
Authority Royal Borough of Kingston Upon Thames
VRM BL130NX
PCN Details
PCN QT08478867
Contravention date 12 Nov 2023
Contravention time 17:28:00
Contravention location Richmond Rd (Junction with Sopwith Way D5)
Penalty amount GBP 130.00
Contravention Entering and stopping in a box junction
Referral date
Decision Date 25 Mar 2024
Adjudicator John Lane
Appeal decision Appeal allowed
Direction
cancel the Penalty Charge Notice.

Reasons
Mr Morgan attended. Ms Symons attended by telephone.

It is a contravention if a person causes their vehicle to enter a box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.

The evidence does not show the appellant’s vehicle “enter” the box junction.

The footage starts with the vehicle already on the box junction.

I will therefore allow the appeal.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2024, 12:05:03 am by Hippocrates »
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There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ
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cp8759

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Re: Redbridge, 31J, PCN, Barley Lane - Stopping in a box junction
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2024, 11:54:27 pm »
@EagerBeaver just go with Hippocrates's draft and let us know when you get a response.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

EagerBeaver

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Re: Redbridge, 31J, PCN, Barley Lane - Stopping in a box junction
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2024, 08:44:03 pm »
Quote from: Hippocrates on June 05, 2024, 11:53:57 pm
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/redbridge-george-lane-31j-stopping-in-a-box-junction-when-prohibited/

Okay, let's not muck about here! No point in even pursuing vague locus as per the OP's first post. The YBJ was known.

Dear Redbridge

Ref: PCN                  VRM             

The contravention did not occur because the video does not show my vehicle at the point of entry.

Should you not cancel the PCN forthwith, I shall take the matter to the Tribunal and be seeking costs.

Please take the eminently sensible decision to cancel the said PCN.

Yours faithfully

Registered keeper

Address


If they resist, I am happy to take charge of this one for you at the Tribunal having won one v Kingston a few months ago on the same issue.

ETA Register of Appeals

Register kept under Regulation 20 of the Road Traffic (Parking Adjudicators) (London) Regulations 1993, as amended and Regulation 17 of the Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (England) Regulations 2022.
Case Details
Case reference 2240040646
Appellant Louisa Symons
Authority Royal Borough of Kingston Upon Thames
VRM BL130NX
PCN Details
PCN QT08478867
Contravention date 12 Nov 2023
Contravention time 17:28:00
Contravention location Richmond Rd (Junction with Sopwith Way D5)
Penalty amount GBP 130.00
Contravention Entering and stopping in a box junction
Referral date
Decision Date 25 Mar 2024
Adjudicator John Lane
Appeal decision Appeal allowed
Direction
cancel the Penalty Charge Notice.

Reasons
Mr Morgan attended. Ms Symons attended by telephone.

It is a contravention if a person causes their vehicle to enter a box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.

The evidence does not show the appellant’s vehicle “enter” the box junction.

The footage starts with the vehicle already on the box junction.

I will therefore allow the appeal.

Have now had a response,

Please see below:

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Hippocrates

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Re: Redbridge, 31J, PCN, Barley Lane - Stopping in a box junction
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2024, 09:23:19 pm »
Total bolleaux. Drop me a PM to start the ball rolling. This is Tribunal time.
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There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ

Hippocrates

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Re: Redbridge, 31J, PCN, Barley Lane - Stopping in a box junction
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2024, 09:53:11 pm »
Molon lave.
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There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ

Hippocrates

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Re: Redbridge, 31J, PCN, Barley Lane - Stopping in a box junction
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2024, 03:18:58 pm »
Usual advice: Contravention did not occur and my representative will file full submissions upon receipt of the council's evidence pack. Left you a whats app message.  If they are daft enough, we may be looking at costs as per your other one!

2240194118
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There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ

Hippocrates

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Re: Redbridge, 31J, PCN, Barley Lane - Stopping in a box junction
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2024, 03:27:01 pm »
Bonkers:

14 days have passed already.

The outstanding balance is £65.00
You can view details to pay for your PCN.
The period when you could contest this PCN has expired.

Penalty Charge Notice: AF98632710
Vehicle registration:
Contravention date: Tuesday, 21 May 2024 16:28
Contravention: Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited
Street: BARLEY LANE
Location:
Status: Representation Rejected

The outstanding balance is £65.00
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There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ

Hippocrates

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Re: Redbridge, 31J, PCN, Barley Lane - Stopping in a box junction
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2024, 12:22:48 pm »
Just phoned the Tribunal. They have issued a DNC request.
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There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ
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