Author Topic: Received Charge Certificate but not PCN  (Read 324 times)

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Andy6527

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Re: Received Charge Certificate but not PCN
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2024, 04:21:20 pm »
I really don't understand, yes the references on the Charge Certificates match the ones on the enforcement notices.

When I log onto they website as if to pay, I can see the evidence, so they are legitimate, but just didn't receive those PCNs.

There is nothing unusual about the address, and I haven't had any other post go missing.

Not sure if they sent the Order of Recovery at all or just went straight to enforcement?

Enceladus

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Re: Received Charge Certificate but not PCN
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2024, 04:53:19 pm »
The Council can't jump straight to bailiff enforcement. First they have to register the charge with the traffic Enforcement Centre of Northampton County Court. Doing so adds a further 9 to the charge. Then they send you by post an Order for Recovery (of unpaid penalty charge). This gives you 21 days to pay or you can submit a Statutory Declaration.

Fail to pay, as is the case here, and the Council will apply for a warrant to enforce the charge and then instructs a bailiff. The bailiff has to send you a Notice of enforcement and they add a charge of 75. The notice should give you 7 clear days to pay up and that's where your at.

The bill is now 1116 and will rise a further 235 if the bailiff visits on or after the 9th.

Or is there something you're not telling us?

The only way to attempt to stop the bailiff is to submit a Statutory Declaration form PE3 and an application to submit an SD out of time (ie late). One for each PCN. And the forms need to be witnessed, FOC at any convenient County Court. Phone and check hours first. However you need to have a good reason as to why you are late.

I strongly advise you to contact Bailiff Advice Online PDQ and get professional advice as to how best to complete the OOT applications.

Get the forms submitted and bailiff enforcement will be frozen until the TEC makes a decision. That buys you several weeks.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2024, 06:47:45 pm by Enceladus »

Andy6527

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Re: Received Charge Certificate but not PCN
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2024, 04:59:21 pm »
Your summary is about right.

After I received the Charge Certificates, I was waiting for the Order for Recovery so I could submit the statutory declarations. No idea why this has gone straight to enforcement, that's just not right, now I have only one week to pay up.

I have been on hold with the TEC for the last hour, not answering my call.

Even if I submit the late statutory declaration, will that get processed in time to stop the bailiffs?

I have submitted a query to Bayliff Advice Online, awaiting their response.

This is getting very frustrating and stressful. I would have been happy to pay the original PCNs, as I did with the ones I received.

Is this all out of the hands of the council now, is there any point at this stage of talking to them?




Enceladus

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Re: Received Charge Certificate but not PCN
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2024, 06:36:36 pm »
08:00am to 17:00pm. Best try in the morning, I doubt if you'll get through in the evening.

Make sure you contact the genuine Bailiff Advice Online and not one of the copycats that come up on a Google search.

Ask the TEC when the debts were first registered and when were the warrants granted and were the addresses ever changed. The fact that you now have the bailiff Notices of Enforcement suggests that warrants might be fairly recent. In which case there's a long delay in progression from Charge Certs to Bailiff.

Your big issue is what to put on the application to file an SD out of time, form PE2. BAO are the experts at that.

One hard to explain issue is that the missing PCNs and OfRs were supposedly sent around 8-9 months apart.

You paid two other PCNs from last March. Check their reference numbers. Do the Charge Certs and NoEs match either of the paid PCNs? And were they also the same address as now?

Are all four NoEs for 279?

The most common reason why notices go AWOL is because people forget or otherwise fail to update the Registered Keeper details with the DVLA, so all the notices go to an out of date address. Or people fail to update the lease or hire company with a change of address.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2024, 06:56:21 pm by Enceladus »

Andy6527

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Re: Received Charge Certificate but not PCN
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2024, 07:01:18 pm »
Thanks, I did click the link provided above for BAO so hopefully they get back to me with something.

On the normal Statuary Declaration form, you just tick the box with the reason you are making the declaration, in this case original PCN not received.

For a late SD, it's different form, and you are only asked the reason for the late submission, in this case not having received the RfO.

I still can't work out why these documents went "missing" makes no sense. As I said, I received two, which I promptly paid, so they must have all correct car and address details.

These Charge Certificates have different reference numbers to the ones I paid.

Basically they are all in pairs, one for each direction once a week on the same LTN. My wife used that route for work in a school she did once a week, so there and back was two contraventions. She did this for about three weeks, until we received a PCN, which we paid and did not go that route again.

Enceladus

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Re: Received Charge Certificate but not PCN
« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2024, 10:10:32 am »
Just to be clear. You need two forms for each PCN.
One of the forms is the Statutory Declaration itself, form PE3.
The second is an application to file a statutory declaration out of time, form PE2. Out of time means late, beyond the normally allowed timeframe. This needs to be very well worded or Enfield will object and the TEC will refuse to revoke the Orders for Recovery and the Charge Certs.

Don't just assume that addresses must be correct. Dig out the V5c for the car and check.
Phone BAO if you don't get a response via email. Make sure you point BAO to your thread on here.

Did you call the Traffic Enforcement Centre? What did they say.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2024, 10:13:09 am by Enceladus »

Andy6527

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Re: Received Charge Certificate but not PCN
« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2024, 11:51:44 am »
I called the TEC this morning, and they pretty much confirmed what you have said, I need to complete both the PE2 and PE3 forms, get them countersigned by a solicitor and email them to the TEC, one email per PCN.

I have now done this, they are saying that their turnaround time is 10 working days, and then the council would take another working day to notify the collection agency to put the bailiffs on hold pending their investigation. The deadline for payment of the enforcement order is 9th February, so it's tight, but assuming that even if the payment date of 9th February is missed, it will take some time before the bailiff comes knocking.

Regarding the address, I don't think its that that's incorrect, something is going wrong within their processing.

I initially received two PCNs which I paid, these were for a contravention after these ones discussed here
I then received Charge Certificates for the four that were missing PCNs, so they had the correct address for those.
Then there was the Notice of Enforcement for all four, which arrived at the correct address.

So, I am missing 4 x PCNs and 4 x OfRs, that's pretty strange.

Enceladus

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Re: Received Charge Certificate but not PCN
« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2024, 12:55:57 pm »
Do you mean that you've already sent the completed PE2 & PE3 forms to the TEC? If so what did you put on the PE2 form in the "reasons" box? Did you get advice from BAO?

Enfield can and likely will oppose your OOT applications, so it's important that the reasons for being late are optimised.

Also be aware that you don't have to go to a solicitor. The forms can be witnessed at any convenient County Court. The County Courts have court officers appointed for this purpose and there is no fee. Phone and check opening hours first. A solicitor or a magistrate will charge a fee.

If you submit properly completed forms to the TEC before 16.00pm on a working day then the TEC will/should inform Enfield Council that SDs & OOTs have been submitted, on the same day. Else the next working day. Enfield will have to freeze the bailiff enforcement immediately pending a decision by the TEC which may take several weeks. I don't know what the current turnaround is.

Also please confirm that you are the registered keeper of the car?
« Last Edit: February 01, 2024, 12:59:25 pm by Enceladus »

Andy6527

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Re: Received Charge Certificate but not PCN
« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2024, 01:10:23 pm »
I have spoken to the good people at BAO who provided an excellent service. For a fee, they can complete the forms for you, which I chose to do for one set, both PE2 and PE3, I can apply the same justification wording to the remaining forms.

The problem with using a County Court to sign the forms is, especially where I am, there is a booking system, I can't even get through to the booking line at my local CC, so not optimistic that I will be able to get a same day appoitment, my local solicitor only charged 5 per form, so with it in the end for such a small fee.

What are the next steps of Enfield deny my request? do I get an opportunity to take this back to court?

Enceladus

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Re: Received Charge Certificate but not PCN
« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2024, 02:23:14 pm »
If the TEC refuse your OOT applications then you will have to submit an N244 application for review by a district judge. This costs, for each PCN, 255 for a hearing in person or 108 for decision based on the papers. And is non-refundable unless you qualify for fee remission, so unemployed and similar.

If the judge refuses your application then you still have to pay the bailiff, so it's a gamble.

Eight discrete pieces of post lost by Royal Mail, lacks credibility. What would you say to the judge to explain what has happened?

Hopefully you won't get to the N244 stage. What did BAO advise you to put on the PE2 form?

Andy6527

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Re: Received Charge Certificate but not PCN
« Reply #25 on: February 01, 2024, 02:29:46 pm »
I might go as far as saying it adds credibility. One piece of missing post, could be due to an issue with the postal system, but not 8, it points to there being a bigger issue somewhere. Especially as the Charge Certificates and Enforcement Notices did get delivered OK.

The fact that I paid the two PCNs from the 27th April on time, which was after these other contraventions occurred, would also be in my favour, why pay the last one and not the ones before, makes no sense? And then why would I not have submitted the Statutory Declaration when I reviewed the OfR if I had received it?

Hopefully it doesn't come to an N244, but if it does, I am happy to represent myself in court over this.


Neil B

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Re: Received Charge Certificate but not PCN
« Reply #26 on: February 01, 2024, 05:21:24 pm »
How did you manage to miss this advice and create an awful mess for yourself.

You can check the outstanding penalty amount from anywhere in the world. Once it goes up to 204 you know a Order for Recovery has been issued. At that point you have 21 days to email the statutory declaration to the traffic enforcement centre, so one or two weeks abroad are not an issue as long as you deal with it promptly when you get back.

Have you mention which council this is?

Andy6527

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Re: Received Charge Certificate but not PCN
« Reply #27 on: February 01, 2024, 07:01:10 pm »
I did check this quite often initially, then I hadn't checked for a while, about 8 months have passed since the original contravention date, so I kind of thought that they hadn't taken it any further by that stage.

The TEC told me that the OfR was made around 27th November, and I hadn't checked it at that time, and again, they should have sent this through the post giving me the opportunity to submit a SD.

The council is Enfield Council.

Andy6527

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Re: Received Charge Certificate but not PCN
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2024, 08:57:53 am »
Well, that went well didn't it  >:(

Just had the bailiff knocking on my door.

So, the enforcement notice only gave me only one week to pay before sending the bailiff round, I submitted the Statutory Declarations on the 1st of Feb, but I was advised by the TEC that they require 10 working days to process, so nothing got sent to the council to put a hold on the enforcement.

The date was the 9th of February, which was Friday, bailiff knocked at my door at 08:00 today, Monday the 12th.

I was told by the bailiff that if I made the payment now and my appeal was sucessful I would be able to claim my money back, not sure if that's true or not, but I did make the payment of 1,300 so lets hope that it is the case.

Otherwise, just have to take it on the chin but that's a lot of money to pay for what should really have been only 260 for the four original tickets.



H C Andersen

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Re: Received Charge Certificate but not PCN
« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2024, 09:41:29 am »
Sorry I missed this thread and my advice is now too late for you, but hopefully not for others who might read this thread.

When an owner receives a Notice of Enforcement they should pay it.

Why?

Because it caps their liability at the 75 Compliance Stage fee and avoids a further 235 per PCN being added.

Paying has NO effect on any application to TEC, this is a parallel process in which the decision is NOT contingent upon whether the debt has been settled.

Out of time application succeeds = all monies refunded;
OOT fails = liability capped.

Why not submit an OOT instead of paying?

Because TEC delays do not affect the enforcement timetable and therefore with current delays at 10 days or more an owner would be liable for the 235 Enforcement fee (due 8 clear days after NoE received) before TEC even registers the application and notifies the council.