Author Topic: Received Charge Certificate but not PCN  (Read 324 times)

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Andy6527

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Received Charge Certificate but not PCN
« on: July 17, 2023, 10:20:50 am »
My wife had inadvertently been driving down a road with an LTN once a week since end of March.

At the end of April, we received two PCNs which we immediately paid and she subsequently found an alternative route thus avoiding any further PCNs. We though that was the end of the matter.

Now we have just received TWO Change Certificates dating back to end of March, but we had not received any PCNs for these. If we had back then, we would have paid them and stopped using this route. Looking online at the PCN numbers I can see they were on the same day, one going and one returning. There sees to still be an option to pay or appeal, not sure what happens if I try to pay the original PCN at the original rat of 65, doubt I would be able to now a Charge Certificate has been issued?

I am now concerned that more CC are going to appear, as she has used this route each week since the 23rd March, although there was a two week break for Ester holidays (my wife is a teacher).

What can I do nor, how to I go about contesting the CC and just pay the original PCN?

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cp8759

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Re: Received Charge Certificate but not PCN
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2023, 10:38:46 am »
Firstly forget about paying the PCN at the 65 rate, we want to explore all possible avenues for getting it cancelled first.

However before we get to that, you need to deal with the Charge Certificate. A Charge Certificate cannot be challenged, but the next document in the process (the Order for Recovery) can be, under the statutory ground that you never received the Penalty Charge Notice.

Have a read of the process on this page https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/understanding-enforcement-process/moving-traffic-pcn-enforcement-process from the "Charge Certificate" paragraph down to the end of the page.

Obviously the PCN didn't turn up so it's possible this might happen to the Order for Recovery, so you don't want to rely on the post. Instead, keep an eye on the amount due on the council website, once the debt has been registered with the Traffic Enforcement Centre, the amount owed will go up by a further 9. At that point you are able to make a statutory declaration, even if you haven't received any further paperwork.

You just need to print off form PE3 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/form-pe3-challenge-an-unpaid-penalty-charge-notice and note that, counterintuitively, the box under "My reasons are (give full reasons)" should be left blank.

You will need to make an appointment at your local county court to get it sworn, or most high street solicitors will do it for 5 - 10. Note that you must not sign the form until the person witnessing it tells you to.

Once that's done, you can scan or photograph the form and email it to tec@justice.gov.uk with the PCN number in the subject line.

If anything isn't clear, please ask.
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I am not a lawyer.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Andy6527

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Re: Received Charge Certificate but not PCN
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2023, 12:21:56 pm »
Thanks for the information, I will follow the described process.

Once the Charge Certificate issue is removed, will I then be presented with the option to pay or to challenge the original PCN?

Obviously, challenge the actual "offence" but would I have grounds on the basis that I did not receive the PCN tithing the specified time period, or at all even?

cp8759

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Re: Received Charge Certificate but not PCN
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2023, 09:11:36 pm »
When the Traffic Enforcement Centre issues a revoking order, the council will issue a new PCN by post, and you'll be able to then either challenge it or pay it at the discount.

However at that stage you should post the PCN on here and we can look at whether it can be challenged on its merits.
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I am not a lawyer.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Andy6527

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Re: Received Charge Certificate but not PCN
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2023, 11:30:06 am »
An update on this one.

Since receiving the two Charge Certificates relating to contraventions of the LTN in both directions on the 23rd March, for which we did not receive PCNs for, we then received two more Charge Certificates for the same contravention a week later on the 30th March, again, no PCNs were recieved.As previously stated, my wife used this route once a week, thankfully, the following two weeks were Easter holidays, no she did not use the route for two weeks.

The PCNs we did receive were for contraventions on the 20th and 27th April, but worryingly, only for one direction, when she says she used the route in both directions, so potentially another two Charge Certificates coming my way.

This is going to be difficult to keep track of all the dates when these go to enforcement and I need to so a Statuary Decleration. I guess I can't do just one to cover them all? The declaration will need to be signed each time by a solicitor, so I am going to rack up a fortune in solicitors fees as I doubt they will do it for free.

What's the timescale from when the two week period for the Charge Certificate expires to when I get an enforcement order and how long do I get to submit Statuary Declarations? I will be on holiday for a couple of weeks from end of next week, so won't be able to deal with it while abroad.

John U.K.

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Re: Received Charge Certificate but not PCN
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2023, 11:37:54 am »
Quote
The declaration will need to be signed each time by a solicitor, so I am going to rack up a fortune in solicitors fees as I doubt they will do it for free.

Free at mags or county court - see CP's post at reply#1

Quote
This is going to be difficult to keep track of all the dates

You should be able to phone Council and ask for details of outstanding PCNs against your reg.mark. and the stage they've reached.

guest179

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Re: Received Charge Certificate but not PCN
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2023, 11:47:11 am »

Even better phone and write.

Something is fundamentally wrong and you need to get on the front foot. So far you've received several CCs for PCNs which you've not received. What next, not receiving CCs for PCNs you haven't received or OfRs and then having bailiffs at your door? 

This is serious so get to work and close the loop with the council.

cp8759

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Re: Received Charge Certificate but not PCN
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2023, 05:45:55 pm »
This is going to be difficult to keep track of all the dates when these go to enforcement and I need to so a Statuary Decleration.
Call the council and get a list of all the outstanding PCNs listed against your car. Then set up a spreadsheet to keep track of everything.

I guess I can't do just one to cover them all? The declaration will need to be signed each time by a solicitor, so I am going to rack up a fortune in solicitors fees as I doubt they will do it for free.
Free at any magistrates' court or county court (note: the magistrates' court won't know anything about this and you'll have to show them the bit of the form where it says it can be witnessed by a justice of the peace).

What's the timescale from when the two week period for the Charge Certificate expires to when I get an enforcement order and how long do I get to submit Statuary Declarations? I will be on holiday for a couple of weeks from end of next week, so won't be able to deal with it while abroad.
You can check the outstanding penalty amount from anywhere in the world. Once it goes up to 204 you know a Order for Recovery has been issued. At that point you have 21 days to email the statutory declaration to the traffic enforcement centre, so one or two weeks abroad are not an issue as long as you deal with it promptly when you get back.
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I am not a lawyer.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Andy6527

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Re: Received Charge Certificate but not PCN
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2024, 01:43:35 pm »
Hi, I know this is an old thread, but I have only just received the enforcement notices for the four alleged PCNs. I have been given until 09/02/2024 to pay, so not much time.

I can now submit a statuary declaration stating that I never received the original PCNs, but what do I do with the enforcement notice, there doesn't seem to be any option other than just pay by the date specified?

Andy6527

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Re: Received Charge Certificate but not PCN
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2024, 02:58:59 pm »
Also, what I have received is as Notice of Enforcement, rather than an Order of Recovery, are these not the same thing? The PE3 form for the statuary declaration mentions OfR.

Looking at the PE3 form, I cannot see why it was necessary to wait for the enforcement notice before submitting a statuary declaration, could I have not done this when I first received the Charge Certificate?

As this is now an enforcement order, presumably made by a court, would that have an impact on my credit rating i.r. CCJ?

Enceladus

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Re: Received Charge Certificate but not PCN
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2024, 03:12:52 pm »
Please post up one of the "Notice of Enforcement". Just redact your name & address and leave everything else visible. Does it mention a fee of 75 because it sounds like a Bailiff notice?

You can't submit the SD until the charge has been registered at Northampton County Court.

You should have received Orders for Recovery (of unpaid penalty charge). These would have had the required SD forms attached. Please confirm if these have been received or not?

No it won't affect your credit rating. But you need to get on top of this or your bank balance is going to be hammered.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2024, 03:26:33 pm by Enceladus »

Andy6527

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Re: Received Charge Certificate but not PCN
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2024, 03:25:55 pm »
It does indeed mention a 75 charge. Looks like this has gone to the next step without me receiving the OfR and they have made an enforcement order for bayliff.

See attached.

Now what can I do?


Enceladus

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Re: Received Charge Certificate but not PCN
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2024, 03:38:48 pm »
You'll have to submit an out of time request to submit your SDs late. One for each each PCN that's reached the bailiff stage.

However you'll have to have a good explanation as to where the notices have got to. And Enfield are bound to object. I suggest you seek help from Bailiff Advice Online who come highly recommended on this forum and others.

The PCN can't be found on the Enfield site using the details on the posted notice above. What are the PCN numbers (reference numbers) for the other three notices you received?

Have you changed address since the March/April 2023?
Is the vehicle leased?
Is the V5c reg doc in the correct name and address?
« Last Edit: January 31, 2024, 03:43:16 pm by Enceladus »

Andy6527

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Re: Received Charge Certificate but not PCN
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2024, 03:52:31 pm »
Well, this one has been really strange.

First of all we received two PCN for the same contravention in May, which we immediately paid.

The after several weeks we received these 4 Charge Certificates, relating to PCNs that we never received dating back to March / April

Our argument is that we would have paid the PCN if we received them, as we had paid the ones that we did receive. My wife only became aware that there was this LTN once we did receive the PCN.

Now I only have until 09 Feb to pay before they start sending round bailiffs.

Enceladus

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Re: Received Charge Certificate but not PCN
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2024, 04:18:28 pm »
Well, this one has been really strange.

First of all we received two PCN for the same contravention in May, which we immediately paid.

The after several weeks we received these 4 Charge Certificates, relating to PCNs that we never received dating back to March / April

Our argument is that we would have paid the PCN if we received them, as we had paid the ones that we did receive. My wife only became aware that there was this LTN once we did receive the PCN.

Now I only have until 09 Feb to pay before they start sending round bailiffs.

That's 1116 they want by the 9th Feb.

Is the name & address on all four of the Notices of enforcement correct? Or anything odd or unusual?
What are the reference numbers from the three notices of enforcement that you haven't posted up yet?
Do the reference numbers on all four of the notices agree with the four Charge Certificates?
Is there any reason why your post might go missing? You are missing 4 x PCNs and 4 x Orders for Recovery. That's eight items of post and not really credible.