3. Proof of observed times.
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Re: Proof of observed times.
« Reply #30 on: »
I'm reminded of General Melchett's phrase in Blackadder Goes Forth.

In any event, if you're prepared to take this to adjudication whatever the adverse financial consequences to you* might be, then you* might still prevail if the authority mess up procedurally.

*- are you the registered keeper with current DVLA data?
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Re: Proof of observed times.
« Reply #31 on: »
😆 Glad I’ve humoured you, I love Blackadder.
Yes, I am the Registered Keeper.
I’m not necessarily prepared to take this to Adjudication.
If the CEO has a time stamped note of when my vehicle was first observed, it would be beyond foolish to challenge that,  given that I have no evidence to prove otherwise.
I would like to see the CEO’s evidence though.
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Re: Proof of observed times.
« Reply #32 on: »
Quote from: LT on August 11, 2025, 07:16:45 pm
If the CEO has a time stamped note of when my vehicle was first observed, it would be beyond foolish to challenge that,  given that I have no evidence to prove otherwise.
I would like to see the CEO’s evidence though.

Did the traffic warden make a note of the valve position of your wheels?
Did the traffic warden make notes after they issued the PCN? Are you able to see the notes?

I am trying to think of any further information I can add.

At the start of a shift, a CEO prints a 'test ticket' with their handheld. The purpose is to check that certain elements of the test ticket are correct e.g. shoulder number, date, time.

In the event that the data is incorrect, the traffic warden should not leave the office with that equipment.
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Re: Proof of observed times.
« Reply #33 on: »
^ Many thanks for your helpful reply.

To answer your question, BANES have replied, but with no mention whatsoever of my specific query ant therefore no evidence either.

The crux of this, which I think is relevant to any Code 30 contravention, is that whilst evidence (if requested) is always provided  with clear time stamped photographs when the PCN was placed on the vehicle, it seems that evidence is not readily proffered to support the time that the vehicle was first observed.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2025, 07:08:07 pm by LT »
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Re: Proof of observed times.
« Reply #34 on: »
You can ask for the info, but at this stage they're not required to provide.

Were it otherwise, IMO it would be an armchair(or perhaps driver's seat) anarchist's charter.
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Re: Proof of observed times.
« Reply #35 on: »
The situation as of today, after having so far ignored my requests by both email and telephone for supporting evidence of the first observation time, is and I quote: "The case will remain on hold until we are able to provide a response. No further action is required on your part until you have received our reply".

I still believe that for an alleged Code:30 contravention, it is entirely reasonable to provide the evidence for the first observed time as well as the time the PCN was issued, if requested.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2025, 06:23:39 pm by LT »
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Re: Proof of observed times.
« Reply #36 on: »
Quote from: H C Andersen on August 13, 2025, 08:44:27 pm
You can ask for the info, but at this stage they're not required to provide.

Were it otherwise, IMO it would be an armchair(or perhaps driver's seat) anarchist's charter.

Thanks for your reply.

Although I must admit that I am puzzled as to why you would think asking for supporting evidence to prove an alleged contravention is somehow anarchistic.
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Re: Proof of observed times.
« Reply #37 on: »
The implication being that a motorist in receipt of a PCN could delay the enforcement process by demanding every item of the authority's evidence!

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Re: Proof of observed times.
« Reply #38 on: »
Quote from: H C Andersen on August 19, 2025, 06:36:20 pm
The implication being that a motorist in receipt of a PCN could delay the enforcement process by demanding every item of the authority's evidence!


A PCN with a Code:30 contravention is issued when a vehicle has stayed longer than the time allowed in a parking space with a time limit. I don't believe I arrived that early, hence I want the proof, before paying up. 

Surely, if requested, it's entirely reasonable to see just two items of supporting evidence. Namely proof of when the vehicle was first observed and when the PCN was issued. For the latter, BANES (as with all LA's I believe) were perfectly happy to provide time stamped photographic evidence. Currently they are being suspiciously evasive when it comes to proof of first observation.

I would argue that for a LA, when requested, to not provide such evidence, is them being dystopian and not me being anarchistic.

BTW, I am perfectly happy to be proved wrong, which is a distinct possibility. After all, most of us will have make mistakes with timings at some point in our lives and I am a senior citizen.  :)
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Re: Proof of observed times.
« Reply #39 on: »
You're overthinking this. It's not an episode of Perry Mason.

From what I see they've not yet replied to your informal challenge? So wait for that.
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Re: Proof of observed times.
« Reply #40 on: »
Thanks for your reply.
BANES  have replied, but totally failed to address my request for proof of first observation time.
As such I emailed them explaining their failure, twice.
As per my earlier post today, I have received the following response from BANES, by email:
"The case will remain on hold until we are able to provide a response. No further action is required on your part until you have received our reply".
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Re: Proof of observed times.
« Reply #41 on: »
I still haven't heard anymore about this since the 19th of August, when I received an email stating that- "The case will remain on hold until we are able to provide a response. No further action is required on your part until you have received our reply."

Which makes me think that either the council are just being slow to deal with this, or they cannot substantiate the time they claim my vehicle was first observed.

Just to clarify, my initial challenge was formally rejected in writing, but it made no reference whatsoever to the reason why I made the challenge.
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Re: Proof of observed times.
« Reply #42 on: »
How would we know, we haven't seen it?

Neither have we seen their email. If you simply sent your observations on their response* through the same channels then you might simply have an auto response and nothing's on hold other than possibly any extended discount period mentioned in their reply..which we haven't seen.

And we've not seen the PCN as far as I can see. Long on narrative but short on objective facts.

*- they're not obliged to respond to a comment that you didn't like their response. You can't simply extend this process at will by writing to the council.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2025, 06:24:23 pm by H C Andersen »
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Re: Proof of observed times.
« Reply #43 on: »
^ Thank you for your response. Please see my fourth post on page one, for the link to a copy of the PCN, which you have previously commented on.

I had quoted (in bold) from the email I received. Below is the full text for you, which I hope will you help you to give me some further words of wisdom, which are much appreciated:



Aug 19, 2025, 3:57 PM

PCN: BN634564XX

Dear Mr XXXX,

Further to  my telephone conversation this afternoon with Emma, who was very helpful, I am writing to once again request the documented proof of the first time my vehicle was observed.

I have repeatedly asked for this, but BANES have so far ignored my request. I have received photographic evidence as proof of the vehicle being parked at 10:43, which I do not dispute.

Surely, if I think the first observation time is incorrect, it is not unreasonable to ask for evidence to substantiate your claim?

Emma told me that the CEO recorded the tyre valve position on two of the wheels of my vehicle at 8:04. If this is the case, please let me have the documented proof. A screenshot from the CEO's handheld device with the time and date will suffice.

As you have repeatedly ignored my reasonable request and taken 8 days to reply to my last email, I cannot help but feel that BANES are deliberately withholding information with the intent of increasing the charge to £50 and that I am being pressured to take this to the Adjudicator.

I hope this matter can be resolved quickly and at no more expense to myself and BANES. If your claim is proved to be accurate, I will of course pay the discounted £25 penalty, but if your delay in providing this evidence results in that right being withdrawn, I shall use this correspondence in my defence of not paying the full £50 penalty.

I look forward to your prompt response.

Yours sincerely

XXXXX XXXXXXX


Their reply:



Aug 19, 2025, 5:22 PM

Good Afternoon Mr. XXXXX

Thank you for your further email in relation to the above Penalty Charge Notice.

 Please be advised that I have added this correspondence, along with your previous emails, to the case for further review and consideration. The case will remain on hold until we are able to provide a response. No further action is required on your part until you have received our reply.

 

Kind Regards

XXXX XXXXX

I have yet to receive any further response, either by email or post. Which doesn't concern me, as it simply makes BANES seem even more incompetent.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2025, 12:53:07 pm by LT »
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Re: Proof of observed times.
« Reply #44 on: »
Who is the registered keeper?

You can demand all you like, they're not obliged to provide at this stage and will in all likelihood simply progress enforcement as per the regulatory timetable.
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  3. Proof of observed times.