Author Topic: PN74336538 Romford Rd, Newham Council - 31j Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited (camera enforcement)  (Read 525 times)

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Dear All,

I hope that you are well.

PCN is here: https://ibb.co/CKFN7Jn

Video footage is here:



Google maps link: https://maps.app.goo.gl/YEjFoS6eNQSKvnFQ9

I would be grateful for your advice if there is any way for me to appeal this?

Thanks
Zincy

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« Last Edit: December 02, 2023, 06:17:07 pm by cp8759 »

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Oh dear, no response yet ?

Well, sorry to have to tell you that at first glance of the video, and your other attachments, I don't see any obvious "killer" appeal argument that would win at London Tribunals.

The video shows you driving into the box without any hesitation at all following a car that then stops just beyond the YBJ thus forcing you to stop in the box for 6 seconds. YOu might say, "well, I didn't know he'd stop and prevent me exiting the box", but your situation is what the law is designed to penalise. Essentially, in traffic, you should not enter a box without having your exit worked out.   You might say 6 seonds this is a very short time, but as somebody who has thrown a hand-grenade, (only on the range, mind you !), 6 seconds seems a very long time indeed before it goes off bang ! Certainly I don't think you'd win on a de minimis basis at the adjudicators, London Tribunals, although you can try it. If you do, the full PCN penalty will be in play, there is no discount at adjudication.

Sorry not to be more positive, but we deal in reality here.  In a situation like yours it is always best to try to tootle slowly across the YBJ in the hope the car in front will start moving.

Thanks, I appreciate realism.

I will wait to see if CP has an alternate view and if not, will just have to pay it within the discount window.

In the past that yellow box was well beyond the junction but they shortened it.

The lines are badly degraded but I doubt that would provide sufficient grounds for a successful appeal.

Got to agree with Inc, discount looks the best option.

Mike

In the past that yellow box was well beyond the junction but they shortened it.

The lines are badly degraded but I doubt that would provide sufficient grounds for a successful appeal.

Got to agree with Inc, discount looks the best option.

Mike

Thanks Mike - it looks like we may need to pay...unless...CP can weave some magic?

Thanks Mike - it looks like we may need to pay...unless...CP can weave some magic?
I'm working on it, give me a few hours please.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Frame by frame analysis shows the vehicle stopped from 22.040 seconds to 16.560 into the video, which is a total stopping time of 5.48 seconds.



This is very much at the upper end of what can be considered de-minimis, but if we put the matter to the authority it might cause a failure to consider.

Draft reps:

Dear London Borough of Newham,

I challenge liability on the basis that the alleged contravention did not occur. I have played the footage frame by frame and my vehicle was stationary for less than six seconds, I refer you to the footage at (insert link here) which shows the video being played one frame at a time.

In light of the stopping time proven by this footage, I invite you to cancel the PCN.

Yours faithfully


Don't use the link above, I will PM you a link to put in the representation, we can use the view count to confirm whether they've looked at it or not (obviously do not click on that link yourself as we want the view count to remain at zero). If they don't view it, we can then prove they've failed to consider all of the evidence. If they say in the rejection that they've considered all the evidence, we've got them for lying as well.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order


The link is analysis of the raw material which the council already has. Frame by frame is something they're perfectly capable of doing for themselves, therefore as the link doesn't represent fresh evidence I could see an adjudicator taking the 'it's just a hijack manoeuvre' view and disregard any appeal based upon this point.

Which would leave the OP with the full penalty for what is a bang-to-rights contravention.

However, if they re-offer the discount for unsuccessful reps then nothing's to be lost and perhaps another flaw will arise. But if we don't know that the authority would re-offer the discount then OP, you've got to ask yourself a question: do you feel lucky?

Frame by frame analysis shows the vehicle stopped from 22.040 seconds to 16.560 into the video, which is a total stopping time of 5.48 seconds.



This is very much at the upper end of what can be considered de-minimis, but if we put the matter to the authority it might cause a failure to consider.

Draft reps:

Dear London Borough of Newham,

I challenge liability on the basis that the alleged contravention did not occur. I have played the footage frame by frame and my vehicle was stationary for less than six seconds, I refer you to the footage at (insert link here) which shows the video being played one frame at a time.

In light of the stopping time proven by this footage, I invite you to cancel the PCN.

Yours faithfully


Don't use the link above, I will PM you a link to put in the representation, we can use the view count to confirm whether they've looked at it or not (obviously do not click on that link yourself as we want the view count to remain at zero). If they don't view it, we can then prove they've failed to consider all of the evidence. If they say in the rejection that they've considered all the evidence, we've got them for lying as well.

Thanks CP - I really appreciate this - unfortunately my friend was nearing the 50% discount deadline and decided to pay before your response PS on that note my FTLA 'Notify me of replies.' were going to my junk which I have now sorted so hoping I do not miss timely reminders in the future.

Again, I really appreciate yours and all elses time and help.