3. PCN whilst broken down: appeal rejected b/c no VAT number despite photos of recovery supplied
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Re: PCN whilst broken down: appeal rejected b/c no VAT number despite photos of recovery supplied
« Reply #15 on: »
Quote from: Neil B on October 07, 2024, 02:38:06 am
Quote from: dion_dublin_fan on October 03, 2024, 04:28:40 pm
There's no issue in the phrasing or any of the documents or in the issuance of the PCN, so don't see what's to gain from posting them. The location of the offence is of no relevance.

The question arises because the council say they will allow an appeal if the car had broken down. The car had broken down, and they have seen photos of it being towed. They have also seen an invoice for it being towed. Yet, they deny the appeal on the basis of a lack of VAT registration on the part of the towing agent.

The question is, will my evidence be seen more favourably at tribunal than at informal appeal?
But you haven't shown us anything at all? Or even mentioned what council is involved.

We can't comment on what an adjudicator would think of something we haven't seen.

OK, this is useful in itself - you're suggesting that an adjudicator in Doncaster would interpret this differently to an adjudicator in Swindon or London?

In a court, the council's position has no legs - I can proved beyond doubt that the car had broken down and needed recovering, and the council/whoever can offer no counter to that. But, we're not in a court of law. So that's why I'm seeking opinions (not necessarily accountable advice) on the way a tribunal or pre-tribunal assessment might look at it.

Is there anything you don't know about this situation that is holding you back from expressing an opinion? Happy to share specifics if they are relevant.
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Re: PCN whilst broken down: appeal rejected b/c no VAT number despite photos of recovery supplied
« Reply #16 on: »
Quote from: mickR on October 06, 2024, 04:27:38 pm
I really don't see how the VAT status of a business is of any relevance as far as a Tribunal is concerned.
A garage with a recovery capability could simply be a sole trader with no company or VAT registration, but still a legally bona fide business.

Thanks.

You're the third person now to express this opinion, so I think on the balance of it, I'll go ahead with this and wait for the NtO, then take it forward from there.
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Re: PCN whilst broken down: appeal rejected b/c no VAT number despite photos of recovery supplied
« Reply #17 on: »
Quote from: dion_dublin_fan on October 07, 2024, 08:54:41 am
Is there anything you don't know about this situation that is holding you back from expressing an opinion? Happy to share specifics if they are relevant.
Yes. The photos you've described and the recovery receipt/invoice.

It would also help you to show us the full rejection.
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Re: PCN whilst broken down: appeal rejected b/c no VAT number despite photos of recovery supplied
« Reply #18 on: »
Not sure why you're so focused on the VAT number. Their response points out that the invoice doesn't contain either a VAT number or a company address. Perhaps if it included the latter, they might accept it?

"Please be advised, as the documentation does not contain a company VAT number or a company address, I am unable to ascertain the validity of the invoice, therefore we would be looking at upholding this PCN."


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Re: PCN whilst broken down: appeal rejected b/c no VAT number despite photos of recovery supplied
« Reply #19 on: »
Quote from: rs101 on October 07, 2024, 01:17:41 pm
Not sure why you're so focused on the VAT number. Their response points out that the invoice doesn't contain either a VAT number or a company address. Perhaps if it included the latter, they might accept it?

"Please be advised, as the documentation does not contain a company VAT number or a company address, I am unable to ascertain the validity of the invoice, therefore we would be looking at upholding this PCN."

That's my bad: I think either are odd grounds to suggest the recovery did not take place, given photo evidence. There is an email address there if they were serious about "ascertaining the validity of the invoice".

As an edit: I do get that an invoice should really contain an address. But what I don't get is how that is grounds to suggest I've staged a bunch of photos of my car being put on a recovery truck at the exact location the PCN was issued...
« Last Edit: October 07, 2024, 05:00:26 pm by dion_dublin_fan »
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Re: PCN whilst broken down: appeal rejected b/c no VAT number despite photos of recovery supplied
« Reply #20 on: »
My reading of the council response is that VAT registration is not, in itself, relevant to them but is being used as a proxy for evidence that the company named on the invoice actually exists a genuine company in the towing/recovery business. So the combination of no VAT registration and no street address for the company has raised their suspicions that it may not be a genuine recovery company. If they had the VAT number they would be able to check if it is genuine - https://www.gov.uk/check-uk-vat-number - and a street address they could check in other sources they have access to. An email address means nothing and it can't be validated that it is the email address of the towing company. Anyone can set up an email address.

Why you would go the bother of hiring a fake recovery company just to avoid their PCN is a mystery known only to the council.

So if you are going to take it further is there other information of the company's existence you could use? Is it registered at Companies House? Does it have a website? Evidence of advertising?

I assume as there is no VAT number no VAT has been included on the invoice?
« Last Edit: October 07, 2024, 08:07:14 pm by PallasAthena »
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Re: PCN whilst broken down: appeal rejected b/c no VAT number despite photos of recovery supplied
« Reply #21 on: »
Agreed. The local authority manages thousands of PCNs and is probably familiar with people trying to pull a fast one. No doubt these are a tiny minority but its strategy seems to be to try and poke holes in your defence in the hope you will give up if you are not genuine.

So, stick to your guns. I suspect if you provide more details on the recovery firm they will back down once they have enough info to establish they are legit. Be that address, contact details, whatever...
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Re: PCN whilst broken down: appeal rejected b/c no VAT number despite photos of recovery supplied
« Reply #22 on: »
The Tribunal is decided by an adjudicator who are qualified in law.

It is a Tribunal of law but is more informal than Court. You would have the right to get it reviewed if the adjudicator made an error in law, which will be heard by a different adjudicator who may be more senior.

And you have the right to appeal to High Court.
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Re: PCN whilst broken down: appeal rejected b/c no VAT number despite photos of recovery supplied
« Reply #23 on: »
In a court, the council's position has no legs - I can proved beyond doubt that the car had broken down and needed recovering, and the council/whoever can offer no counter to that. But, we're not in a court of law. So that's why I'm seeking opinions (not necessarily accountable advice)

A car breaking down is not as such a winning defence. The main issue is whether this was beyond your control. If the fault was pre-existing and within your knowledge then even accepting all you've said you could still lose.

Also, what alternatives were available to you rather than pushing the car into a res bay?

And when was the PCN issued and when was the vehicle removed i.e. did you make every effort to move the car out of contravention or was this the next day for example?

I suggest you broaden your approach and post what's been requested.

Who is the RK and are their DVLA details current?
« Last Edit: October 07, 2024, 09:47:54 pm by H C Andersen »
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Re: PCN whilst broken down: appeal rejected b/c no VAT number despite photos of recovery supplied
« Reply #24 on: »
Quote from: H C Andersen on October 07, 2024, 09:45:59 pm
A car breaking down is not as such a winning defence. The main issue is whether this was beyond your control. If the fault was pre-existing and within your knowledge then even accepting all you've said you could still lose.

Thanks, good to know. Fault was not pre-existing and I had no prior knowledge. I think it is reasonably demonstrable it was beyond my control.

Quote from: H C Andersen on October 07, 2024, 09:45:59 pm
Also, what alternatives were available to you rather than pushing the car into a res bay?

Leaving it on double yellows in a street that is busy all day - and not wide enough for a large car to have been able to pass mine if stationary.

Quote from: H C Andersen on October 07, 2024, 09:45:59 pm
And when was the PCN issued and when was the vehicle removed i.e. did you make every effort to move the car out of contravention or was this the next day for example?

Parking restriction came into force 08:00, PCN issued 09:35, car removed 10:30. I made every effort to move the car out of the most flagrant contravention that would have caused a public nuisance (i.e., in the middle of the road on double yellows).

Quote from: H C Andersen on October 07, 2024, 09:45:59 pm
Who is the RK and are their DVLA details current?

Family member, and yes.
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Re: PCN whilst broken down: appeal rejected b/c no VAT number despite photos of recovery supplied
« Reply #25 on: »
Quote from: MrChips on October 07, 2024, 07:36:31 pm
Agreed. The local authority manages thousands of PCNs and is probably familiar with people trying to pull a fast one. No doubt these are a tiny minority but its strategy seems to be to try and poke holes in your defence in the hope you will give up if you are not genuine.

So, stick to your guns. I suspect if you provide more details on the recovery firm they will back down once they have enough info to establish they are legit. Be that address, contact details, whatever...

This is the thing: if you Google the recovery guy's mobile number, email address, it comes up with his Google Maps listing. I could reasonably ask him to give another invoice with his address that I could include when I respond to the NtO. That could mean it's over before it's begun, since they laid down this bizarre side-quest around VAT and address...

Thanks. And thanks again: if you're the same MrChips from That Other Forum, then this is the second time you've helped me out (previously YBJ / no luck).
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Re: PCN whilst broken down: appeal rejected b/c no VAT number despite photos of recovery supplied
« Reply #26 on: »
If it was a YBJ, almost certainly me!

Ps if you are a Dion Dublin fan, you'll love the @bryansgunn twitter account.

https://x.com/bryansgunn/status/1842464528879026336?t=qi284a2CCqcOeRTvervLyQ&s=19
« Last Edit: October 08, 2024, 12:38:05 am by MrChips »
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Re: PCN whilst broken down: appeal rejected b/c no VAT number despite photos of recovery supplied
« Reply #27 on: »
Registered keeper is 'Family member, and yes[DVLA details are current]'.

In all cases like this, the RK receives the NTO and is liable for any penalty. They could authorise you in writing to act for them but they always retain liability and therefore you should keep them onside as regards next steps. 

It's not the best situation when we cannot see the evidence available/presented to the council (PCN, photos, complete correspondence(including attachments)) because how can we be expected to put any response in its correct context?
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Re: PCN whilst broken down: appeal rejected b/c no VAT number despite photos of recovery supplied
« Reply #28 on: »
Still no NTO in the post. It's been about 28 days since the end of the window to pay the PCN.

How long do they typically take to come?

Is there any chance the council simply realises they're wasting their time and drops it before even sending the NTO?


--
P.S. @MrChips - I love that account. "Where's the cue ball going?!" Pops into my head in some inopportune moments since seeing that one.
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Re: PCN whilst broken down: appeal rejected b/c no VAT number despite photos of recovery supplied
« Reply #29 on: »
I would like to see a copy of the PCN itself and the informal rejection (with only the name and address covered up).

Without seeing them I'm out.
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I am currently too busy working to take on any except the most unreasonable PCNs.

I help you pro bono (for free). I now ask that a £40 donation is made to the North London Hospice before I take over your case. I have an 85% success rate across 2,000 PCNs but some PCNs can't be beaten and I will tell you if your case looks hopeless before asking you to donate.
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