3. PCN using cameras for loading bay
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PCN using cameras for loading bay
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Hi Guys

Used a loading bay in the hope of buying a second-hand mattress from the nearby Heart Foundation.
Was told the PCN was issued using new cameras fixed on the loading bay in London Rd Brighton.

Is this normal and what can I do? Can they just use a camera? There's no signage to indicate this?

The mattress was unavailable in the end, but I had bough ratchet harnesses especially and keep them in the boot.

Kind regards
Jonny

Here is a link to the PCN https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/imtmzrc42hgzo40ywg714/PCN-new.jpg?rlkey=l2lh2x4j95dzs44cnblpzteay&st=vew83p9o&dl=0

Any issues please let me know.

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Re: PCN using cameras for loading bay
« Reply #1 on: »
Camera enforcement signs are not a legal requirement.

Normally, they wouldn't be able to enforce using cameras a loading bay, but I see double-red lines on the photo, so they may be trying to "fiddle it". A recent High Court judicial review ruled that councils can enforce Red Routes using CCTV, but specific signs have to be in place to make it a Red Route.

Best if you wait a bit until our administrator has had a look because he was involved in the original red route case.

Please post up a GSV link to the exact location.
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Re: PCN using cameras for loading bay
« Reply #2 on: »
@JackFB well this is interesting because on a TFL red route, the contravention code is always 46 - Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clearway), but here it's code 25.

Now, if it's a red route and the traffic order only creates a stopping prohibition with an exemption for loading, then the contravention on the PCN did not occur because there is no designated parking place.

On the other hand if it is a designated parking place, then the traffic order itself says it's not a red route, so CCTV enforcement cannot apply.

In order for us to work out which one it is, please start by giving us the PCN number and the number plate and I'll do some basic checks.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: PCN using cameras for loading bay
« Reply #3 on: »
Quote from: Incandescent on June 25, 2024, 12:59:14 pm
Camera enforcement signs are not a legal requirement.

Normally, they wouldn't be able to enforce using cameras a loading bay, but I see double-red lines on the photo, so they may be trying to "fiddle it". A recent High Court judicial review ruled that councils can enforce Red Routes using CCTV, but specific signs have to be in place to make it a Red Route.

Best if you wait a bit until our administrator has had a look because he was involved in the original red route case.

Please post up a GSV link to the exact location.

Here is the streetmap view of the space - taken before the red lines put in. . Streetmap view
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Re: PCN using cameras for loading bay
« Reply #4 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on June 26, 2024, 08:15:52 pm
@JackFB well this is interesting because on a TFL red route, the contravention code is always 46 - Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clearway), but here it's code 25.

Now, if it's a red route and the traffic order only creates a stopping prohibition with an exemption for loading, then the contravention on the PCN did not occur because there is no designated parking place.

On the other hand if it is a designated parking place, then the traffic order itself says it's not a red route, so CCTV enforcement cannot apply.

In order for us to work out which one it is, please start by giving us the PCN number and the number plate and I'll do some basic checks.

Thank you
Reg: GR56HDL
PCN: BH84771802
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Re: PCN using cameras for loading bay
« Reply #5 on: »
So here:
Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps. · maps.app.goo.gl


Unfortunately GSV is out of date, but the information here and the video confirm this is all part of a red route:



Shopping isn't loading, so we'll have to go for a technical appeal. Here's a draft representation:

Dear Brighton & Hove City Council,

The alleged contravention did not occur, because my vehicle was not stopped in a designated parking place, rather it was stopped on a red route so the contravention should have been 46 - Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clearway).

In the alternative, if I was not stopped on a red route, then there is no power to serve a postal penalty charge, service of which is a procedural impropriety.

I refer you to the High Court decision in Transport for London, R (on the application of) v London Tribunals (Environment and Traffic Adjudicators) [2023] EWHC 2889 (Admin) where it was held that service of postal PCNs is permitted in bays located along a red route, but only if the bays are part of the red route itself. A designated parking place cannot be a red route and a red route cannot be a designated parking place, as the two are mutually exclusive.

It follows that the PCN must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,

Send this online and keep a screenshot of the confirmation page, in the meantime I'll get hold of the traffic order.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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Re: PCN using cameras for loading bay
« Reply #6 on: »
Thank you, will follow up all the appropriate advice. Meanwhile I went to the site and took some pics, just in case they are of any use. https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/arosipg3x7jmcjmi4w9wl/AGFCNUgp0QVz-dWDfSeLdkY?rlkey=5sqng0rbd4yvmfdndtsrdh0rd&st=sd7ld17u&dl=0
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Re: PCN using cameras for loading bay
« Reply #7 on: »
Quote from: JackFB on July 03, 2024, 06:06:10 pm
Thank you, will follow up all the appropriate advice. Meanwhile I went to the site and took some pics, just in case they are of any use. https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/arosipg3x7jmcjmi4w9wl/AGFCNUgp0QVz-dWDfSeLdkY?rlkey=5sqng0rbd4yvmfdndtsrdh0rd&st=sd7ld17u&dl=0
The photos confirm it's not a loading place, so the contravention alleged cannot have occurred.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: PCN using cameras for loading bay
« Reply #8 on: »
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: PCN using cameras for loading bay
« Reply #9 on: »
The photos seem to confirm the restriction IMO.

It is a length of 24/7 red route where there is a marked area where loading is exempted from the prohibition 24/7, hence marked in white.

Any issues please let me know.

Yes, what are the objective events shown on the video? You park, leave the vehicle, return X minutes later empty-handed and then drive away?
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Re: PCN using cameras for loading bay
« Reply #10 on: »
Quote from: H C Andersen on July 05, 2024, 07:15:39 pm
It is a length of 24/7 red route where there is a marked area where loading is exempted from the prohibition 24/7, hence marked in white.
The PCN alleges a contravention in a designated parking place. The vehicle was not in a designated parking place according to the traffic order.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: PCN using cameras for loading bay
« Reply #11 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on June 30, 2024, 01:17:22 pm
So here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/5LqGynUHbsxX9veF6

Unfortunately GSV is out of date, but the information here and the video confirm this is all part of a red route:



Shopping isn't loading, so we'll have to go for a technical appeal. Here's a draft representation:

Dear Brighton & Hove City Council,

The alleged contravention did not occur, because my vehicle was not stopped in a designated parking place, rather it was stopped on a red route so the contravention should have been 46 - Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clearway).

In the alternative, if I was not stopped on a red route, then there is no power to serve a postal penalty charge, service of which is a procedural impropriety.

I refer you to the High Court decision in Transport for London, R (on the application of) v London Tribunals (Environment and Traffic Adjudicators) [2023] EWHC 2889 (Admin) where it was held that service of postal PCNs is permitted in bays located along a red route, but only if the bays are part of the red route itself. A designated parking place cannot be a red route and a red route cannot be a designated parking place, as the two are mutually exclusive.

It follows that the PCN must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,

Send this online and keep a screenshot of the confirmation page, in the meantime I'll get hold of the traffic order.

Hi CP

I posted your reply online under the PCN and they just sent me back a PDF Notice of rejections of Representations by email. This can be seen here: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/arosipg3x7jmcjmi4w9wl/AGFCNUgp0QVz-dWDfSeLdkY?rlkey=5sqng0rbd4yvmfdndtsrdh0rd&st=2rdpbd78&dl=0

They are not citing it as a red route contravention, more a 25 - Loading bay one/

Kind regards
Jack
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Re: PCN using cameras for loading bay
« Reply #12 on: »
As per cp and others, the markings show it as a red route, as do the traffic signs.

The PCN, however, alleges a different contravention.

So to consolidate what I understand are the views:

Were you on a Red Route? Yes, if the markings and signs are correct.
Can the alleged contravention occur on a Red Route? No. This is not a parking place, it is a length of RR carriageway where the prevailing RR prohibition doesn't apply if the conditions on the sign are met.

You didn't = you were stopped on a Red Route, NOT in a loading/parking or any other type of place.

And if it's not a RR, then they can't use a camera.

Hey ho.
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Re: PCN using cameras for loading bay
« Reply #13 on: »
Hi Guys

I've now been sent a Charge Certificate after responding to the council with the above advice.

I didn't receive an NoR by post with the tick box options to send to an adjudicator, it was just the PDF by email.

So far this is the history:
09/09/2024 07:20   Charge Certificate Issued
06/09/2024 11:33   Off hold no compensate
06/09/2024 11:33   Go to TPT
09/08/2024 17:33   On Hold: Representation Received
29/07/2024 13:56   Notice of Rejection discount CCTV
29/07/2024 13:52   Representation submitted Under review
29/07/2024 13:52   Representation Rejected
29/07/2024 13:50   Off Hold Compensate
29/07/2024 13:50   Representation submitted Under review
29/07/2024 13:50   Representation Rejected
05/07/2024 15:25   On Hold: Representation Received
17/06/2024 07:11   PCN Issued

I feel I should appeal now to the Traffic Penalty tribunal online immediately citing there was no posted NoR and I am surprised at the jump to Charge Certificate.

I responded online to the council so they would have received my argument.
The Charge Certificate cites contravention 25. Obviously they have used a camera and I'm citing contravention forty-six.

I will forward on a pic of my boot where I keep my roof straps for picking up a mattress. I'm not convinced this counts as shopping, as this is an in ordinate weight needing the benefit of a loading bay. the fact the mattress was no longer there was frustrating to me, plus it happened before in London - so I'm annoyed at myself for assuming the mattress would not be sold.

Anyway, your thoughts and advice would be greatly welcome as usual. And is there a place where I can make donations to help with running this website, thank you?

Kind regards
Jack

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Re: PCN using cameras for loading bay
« Reply #14 on: »
no mention in their NOR of your red route claims
so I would suggest their failure to consider to add to the list.

# Do they not have to post a NOR?
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