Author Topic: PCN TR10516584 - Trafford Council - Parked in a permit space without valid permit - Code 16 - Brook Close  (Read 1358 times)

0 Members and 44 Guests are viewing this topic.

Quote
what if the NtO gets sent to the previous owner?
The answer is it can get very messy, so you really need to send another representation to the council to give them your current name and address, and to point out your V5 is in course of update as the car has only recently been purchased.

Quote
It just occurred to me that as I bought the car not long before the offence, I've still not received the updated V5 as yet - what if the NtO gets sent to the previous owner?

It may or may not, depending on DVLA.

However, you can do two things:
1) keep a contant eye on the status/history of the PCN pon the Council website.
2) send an e-mail to the Council along the lines of
   
        Re: PCN TR10516584 and my challenge of [DATE]
                    Please note that I recently acquired the vehicle and all corespondence should be sent to
                            [NAME & ADDRESS] 
                    as I am still waiting for the revised V5 from DVLA.


Keep a copy and of any Council receipt/acknowledgement.

EDIT:
Cross-posted with previous.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2024, 05:41:06 pm by John U.K. »

@ATB I suggest you contact DVLA and find out what's going on with your V5C, the last one was issued on 5 August 2022 and really it should have been reissued by now.

I would also contact the previous owner to ask them to name you as the new owner if the NTO goes to them. The last thing you want is for the previous owner to pay the penalty and then start arguing that you owe them the money.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Still nothing from Trafford Council yet... this is getting annoying as of course I'm having to check every day for an email and check Spam folders etc just in case they have finally gotten round to reviewing/replying through fear of missing the response

Can they really just take as long as they want? As at least with a speeding fine they have to make contact within 14 days if I recall correctly?

As regards contacting DVLA, this is from their website:

If your new log book does not arrive
Contact DVLA if the new log book has not arrived after 4 weeks.

If you have not received your log book after 6 weeks and you have not notified DVLA, you’ll have to pay £25 to get a replacement.


https://www.gov.uk/change-address-v5c?step-by-step-nav=c1f13d41-ed7f-44a3-be11-fd95525ddf40

OP, if you're annoyed at Trafford Council you'll be even more so with DVLA because it is your responsibility to be proactive and check with them.

@ATB your primary concern should be to sort out the V5C issue. Even for a speeding fine, if the address held at DVLA is wrong that's your problem, not that of DVLA or the police. If you don't get a speeding NIP within 14 days because you've failed to get the address updated, you risk 6 points on your licence and the fact that you didn't get the letter at all (let alone within 14 days) would not be a defence.

The council website says the penalty due is £35, this indicates they have issued an informal rejection reoffering the discounted penalty. You therefore need to get the records at DVLA updated urgently, DVLA will record the change of keeper based on the date that you tell them you bought the vehicle, and the council users a system that gives them the RK at the date of the contravention. As long as the DVLA updates their records and backdates the transfer of keepership appropriately, the notice to owner will come directly to you, but you really need to get a wiggle on.

It is also a criminal offence to drive a car on the road if the name and address at DVLA is not correct.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Finally got a response, rejected as expected - pics enclosed

Given the issue with the DVLA - would it just be easier to pay? Or tell them to send the NtO to myself and fight?

Edit:
Images in the new post below
« Last Edit: June 19, 2024, 01:15:27 pm by ATB »

Please re-post - you've cropped too much - you only need to redact name and address.

What is the all important date of the NtO?

Finally got a response, rejected as expected - pics enclosed

Given the issue with the DVLA - would it just be easier to pay? Or tell them to send the NtO to myself and fight?

Edit:
Images in the new post below

I noticed they said "I can confirm that the signs..." and "... the restrictions are defined with entry/exit signs."

If only there were 'signs' rather than a single sign...

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/n3l36gd52p48z1449q7xq/Response1.jpg?rlkey=bfqicanyyr22av51fn493bnnz&st=szfgauhs&dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/hn00wzje3x7sa7wvlu5uh/Response2.jpg?rlkey=cp23fhb07awdm2g3yeavxe80l&st=nu71up4c&dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/2sv304ub2growvd7vrios/Response3.jpg?rlkey=s5t2p6suumiry4z6z59j5hw5i&st=4rdnynuq&dl=0
« Last Edit: June 19, 2024, 01:24:12 pm by ATB »

« Last Edit: June 19, 2024, 02:55:31 pm by H C Andersen »

I noticed they said "I can confirm that the signs..." and "... the restrictions are defined with entry/exit signs."

If only there were 'signs' rather than a single sign...
But there are:

Entry sign: https://maps.app.goo.gl/fgFM7QWD8vxZMf8m7

Exit sign: https://maps.app.goo.gl/qYS87PUMccfPF4sh9

If there happened to be an large van going the other way as you drove in it might be an issue, but if the sign was there to be seen then it would be deemed adequate by most adjudicators.

The premium rate number plus a failure to consider might be the best arguments.


I've also realised we've not got the traffic order for this location so I'll get hold of it.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2024, 11:37:03 pm by cp8759 »
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

I noticed they said "I can confirm that the signs..." and "... the restrictions are defined with entry/exit signs."

If only there were 'signs' rather than a single sign...
But there are:

Entry sign: https://maps.app.goo.gl/fgFM7QWD8vxZMf8m7

Exit sign: https://maps.app.goo.gl/qYS87PUMccfPF4sh9

If there happened to be an large van going the other way as you drove in it might be an issue, but if the sign was there to be seen then it would be deemed adequate by most adjudicators.

The issue for me is there's only one sign on entry, and normally where the sign is there's a van normally parked there as he must get there early or stay permanently parked (I often park in the side street and walk up Brook Close and hence see the van parked there often but I'd never noticed the sign as the van blocks it) so assumed under the LATOR rules there should be a sign on the opposite side of the road also, and of course at the point of seeing the exit sign you've mostly likely already committed the offence and leaving...

The issue for me is there's only one sign on entry, and normally where the sign is there's a van normally parked there as he must get there early or stay permanently parked (I often park in the side street and walk up Brook Close and hence see the van parked there often but I'd never noticed the sign as the van blocks it) so assumed under the LATOR rules there should be a sign on the opposite side of the road also, and of course at the point of seeing the exit sign you've mostly likely already committed the offence and leaving...
Are you able to get photos of the van being parked over the course of a number of different days? You only have to prove the facts on the balance of probabilities, and if you can show that there is a van parked there most days over a week or two, that should be enough.

But you must take any photos showing the perspective of an approaching driver, in fact if you can film a video on dashcam that would be best. There's no point in taking photos from a "convenient" angle.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Everytime I go there the same van/s are usually there, however I don't go very often and to go once within the days I've got left would cost probably the same amount in fuel as to just pay the ticket... I fear this may just be the best approach given the reasons I have to try and defend myself and risk the double fine...

@ATB but with Trafford we have the 0845 argument as per Paul Bateman v Derbyshire County Council, and if you take this to the tribunal the case won't be heard for months.

If you can take a photo every time you happen to go there between now and the hearing, you should have plenty of evidence to put in front of the adjudicator.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order