Author Topic: PCN - TFL - Code 46 Stopped where prohibited but stuck behind lorry - Tooting  (Read 309 times)

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mang0

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Council Name: TfL
Location: Tooting
Code: 46
Alleged Contravention: Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clearway)
PCN SCAN
GMAPS Location

Hello everyone,

As ever... back for more advice! I seem to love getting PCNs.

A few days back I was riding my motorbike down Tooting High Street: GMAPS link. There were roadworks along the road, and traffic was extremely heavy. On top of this, a large lorry was stationary in front of a pub, blocking the road just round the junction.
As such, I was forced to stop behind the lorry right after I turned onto the road. My bike was too wide to lane split and continue down the road.

I was stationary for a couple of minutes behind the lorry (engine still running), reset the directions on my GPS and then continued when I was able to get back into the traffic.

Today I received a PCN with Code 46, saying I had stopped where prohibited on a red route or clearway. This feels a bit ridiculous/unfair as there was not anywhere I could move the bike at that point, due to the Hobgoblin Ale truck blocking the road!

Any advice on this would be appreciated, as I would like to contest based on the fact that the images they have of me stopped is a period of 1 minute, and I was stuck behind the lorry and unable to be anything but stationary. I was not parked, I did not switch off the engine, I paused behind the lorry blocking my way for a minute or so and then continued along my route.

Thanks all.

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Incandescent

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Fair enough, but their sole evidence is a video which we need to see. 

You can phone TfL and ask for the video which they will send as a DVD, (yes, they are a bit behind the times at TfL, everybody else has the video on-line !).
When they have told you that they will send the DVD, they freeze PCN progress for 2 weeks, (make sure they tell you this !!) then restart it. They assume you will have got the DVD by then, but sometimes it doesn't arrive, so you need to put a date in your diary to contact them again if the DVD hasn't turned up.

Fluffykins

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Was it that the TfL cameras weren't properly certified/approved evidential devices? If so, is the situation still ongoing?

mang0

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Fair enough, but their sole evidence is a video which we need to see. 

You can phone TfL and ask for the video which they will send as a DVD, (yes, they are a bit behind the times at TfL, everybody else has the video on-line !).
When they have told you that they will send the DVD, they freeze PCN progress for 2 weeks, (make sure they tell you this !!) then restart it. They assume you will have got the DVD by then, but sometimes it doesn't arrive, so you need to put a date in your diary to contact them again if the DVD hasn't turned up.

Thank you for this - I have spoken to TfL and they are sending me the DVD with the footage on it. They have said it can take up to 28 days to arrive, but the PCN will be frozen for that amount of time. They said to keep an eye on it online (currently under code SUS20 and marked as on hold) and have given me a reference code I can quote if necessary to prove I had asked for the DVD and the PCN is on hold.

Will report back once I have the footage!
« Last Edit: October 25, 2024, 03:48:08 pm by mang0 »

mang0

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Just as an update here - I have not received any footage yet. The PCN is still listed as on hold, and I have chased TFL once again to send me the footage. Obviously 28 days since the issuance of the PCN has passed, but they have told me on the phone that until the PCN is taken off hold (either footage dispatched or another reason) then it is still on hold and I am only liable for the £80 as it stands.

Extremely frustrating. I have been told to call back again if I have not received anything within 10 working days. With Christmas coming up I don't have much hope...

mang0

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Sigh... I've still not received anything, it is marked as 'On Hold' and yet online the charge value has now increased from £80 to £160. I will phone them again tomorrow.

I imagine I'll have a pretty good leg to stand on to get them at least to reduce it to £80 given that they told me it would not increase while I was waiting, and I have continously chased them?

mang0

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Phoned TFL again - they have reduced back to £80 and have told me to phone back on the 15th Jan if the footage still hasn't arrived. This whole process is insane. It must have cost them more in staff time on the phone to me, packaging the DVD and sending than it would have to send me the footage digitally.

Incandescent

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Phoned TFL again - they have reduced back to £80 and have told me to phone back on the 15th Jan if the footage still hasn't arrived. This whole process is insane. It must have cost them more in staff time on the phone to me, packaging the DVD and sending than it would have to send me the footage digitally.
TfL are in the Dark Ages. I think all London councils now put photos and videos on-line. Quite why TfL send out DVDs when most people's IT kit doesn't even have a reader for them !
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mang0

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TfL are in the Dark Ages. I think all London councils now put photos and videos on-line. Quite why TfL send out DVDs when most people's IT kit doesn't even have a reader for them !

Someone I spoke to wondered if TfL bought 1000s of DVDs for this years ago, and are still working through an old stockpile of them so that it's not a wasted cost - although I'm sure it's costing them more to do this way now!

mang0

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Finally have received my DVD from TfL - how exciting.

HERE is the footage link on my Google Drive - weirdly, they have cut the video off before I drive back into the traffic. You can see I cannot fit the bike through the gap by the Hobgoblin truck and the rest of the traffic. I pulled in behind the truck and put my hazards on so as not to obstruct cyclists/other road users from squeezing down the side of the truck. Reset my GPS (you can even see me looking around for my bearings!) and then I continued on my way (not shown as the video ends).

If the Hobgoblin truck had not been there blocking the road, I would not have stopped there.

Any advice on how best to make my representation to challenge this would be much appreciated.

Incandescent

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Looking at the video, you popped over that broad white line into a cycle lane. As far as I know these are not to be used by motortraffic, but they haven't whalloped you for that, but for stopping on a red route. I suppose this is also valid, but you could say that you were 'in traffic' because all the other traffic there is stopped as well.

However, I suspect it is the hazard lights and your activities when stopped which argue against the 'in traffic' argument. This is a difficult one, so see what others say.

mickR

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what doesn't help is that the other traffic moves off including the delivery bike with a big box on the back.

H C Andersen

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OP, let's be candid about the objective evidence.

You weren't stuck behind the lorry. You deliberately moved from the traffic lane, which admittedly wasn't moving, to behind the parked lorry - probably because it was unloading and therefore was going to give you cover for a couple of minutes to allow you to do whatever it was you were doing.
Maybe you thought...blow it, if I'm stuck in this traffic so I'll see what alternative routes my satnav will give me. I don't know, but an adjudicator would see what's clear.

I suggest you change tack and say that as the traffic wasn't moving I decided to pull across to *****. Although the video doesn't show me moving back into the traffic lane I did so immediately adter the video stops in order to *****.


mang0

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Thank you all for the responses - and @HC I appreciate the candidness, as it is always more difficult to be totally objective and unbiased towards your own situation.

I feel that ultimately the reality is a combination of everything that has been mentioned. I would not have stopped if the lorry hadn't been parked there as I would have been able to continue down the road. But as it was, and it was standstill traffic to my right, I made the decision not try try and manouvre my bike through (@mickR I totally understand your point, although my motorbike is a lot heavier and less manouvreable in tight traffic than a delivery moped!) and instead to sit behind the lorry for a moment and re-assess to see if there was an alternative route. The most annoying part is I actually did pull back out into the traffic and continue in that direction, so it was a totally useless exercise anyway!

I'll see if any others have any futher suggestions before I draft a challenge which I will post here before submitting. If it fails and the fine stands, then I can understand that it was a poor judgement call from me. I suppose the irony of the situation is that I stopped there to avoid being in the way of other road users (cyclists, mopeds etc that you see in the video) while sorting navigation, but have been penalised for what is essentially causing an obstruction by stopping on a red route. But hey we all make bad calls sometimes so perhaps this is one of those instances.


ManxTom

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I think anybody viewing that video objectively would conclude that you were stopped from at least around the one minute mark when the queue of traffic you had been in started to move off around you leaving you stationary.  And it's at that point that the camera zooms in on you.

It could even be argued that you were stopped (and showed your intention to do so) earlier when you pulled out of traffic into the cycle lane behind the truck and stopped at around the 51 seconds mark.

I don't think your reason for pulling in behind the truck - to reset your GPS - helps you.  It shows that you intended to stop and you did so.

That's not to say that you don't have a technical argument against the wording of the PCN or against TFL's procedures, but nobody has yet pointed anything out