Author Topic: PCN - SM80723580 & SM80723161 - Stockport Metropolitan Borough Council - Heaton Bus Lane- Rental Agency  (Read 240 times)

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tikraseth

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Hi,

I am copying over discussions that I initiated on Pepipoo website.
Current Status: Awaiting a response from the Stockport Borough Council post me filing a representation for the 2 PCN's received on the same day.

Brief Description: Rental Agency received the PCN, for me driving through the Bus Gate at Heaton Lane. They responded to the Council, stating that I was driving as a renter. Post this, I received new PCN from Stockport Council, to which I made a representation stating

Dear Stockport Metropolitan Borough Council,

I challenge liability on the basis that I have never owned the vehicle concerned. Further to this, there has been a procedural impropriety because the enforcement authority has served the enforcement notice outside of the 28 day limitation period.

The PCNs must therefore be cancelled.

Also I did reach out to the Rental Agency, once again to confirm if they had any correspondences with the Council , after receiving the Initial PCN's, but they came back with the following response

"Good Afternoon,

Thank you for your email.

With regards to your questions, we received both PCN's in the post. We then sent your details to the issuing agencies so they can send the transfer of liability to you and re-issue the fine. From that, you are able to pay or appeal the PCN's.

From what I have looked up at on the websites, the PCN's remain open."

I have also uploaded a jpeg file , which shows the overall discussions on Pepipoo site.
Link is https://www.flickr.com/photos/198366001@N03/with/52983048449/

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cp8759

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Did you get a screenshot of the confirmation page?

Also when exactly did you make representations? Under the Traffic Management Act, the council only gets 56 days to respond.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

tikraseth

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Yes I did file the representation on 6th June'23...See attachment...
I also took snapshot from the Council Website for the 2 PCN's that I received, and the amount that was outstanding when I filed the representation, it was showing up as GBP30 for each of the PCN's.

Note : PCN numbers received by Rental Agency :
Issuing Agency: STOCKPORT METROPOLITAN BOROUGH COUNCIL
Citation Number: SM80723161
Web Code: 041BN435
Date Of Issue: 17th April 2023

========================================
Issuing Agency: STOCKPORT METROPOLITAN BOROUGH COUNCIL
Citation Number: SM80723580
Web Code: 041BS781
Date Of Issue: 17th April 2023.

PCN Received by Me from the Council, I received these by post only around last week of May, don't recollect the exact date

Citation Number:SM80783640 Web Code: 041BV435 Date Of Notice: 17th May 2023
Citation Number:SM80783651 Web Code: 041BX781 Date Of Notice: 17th May 2023



cp8759

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So if they don't serve a response by August 1st, you've won. Of course this doesn't cover a response that is sent but not received, but checking the amount due on the council website will normally provide a clue.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

tikraseth

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Link to the Pepipoo forum, where I had initiated the initial discussion

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=149939

There was a question raised by hcandersen, in context of the 28 days of sending a Notice Of Acceptance for closing the earlier PCN's and raising new ones..If you could provide your view?


The duty of the authority is:

4) The requirements mentioned in paragraph (3) are that enforcement authority must—

(a)consider the representations and any supporting evidence which the recipient provides, and



(b)serve on the recipient a notice of its decision (a “decision notice”) which states whether or not it accepts the representations made by the recipient.

(5) If the enforcement authority accepts the representations—

(a)it must cancel the relevant enforcement notice,

(b)its decision notice must state that the enforcement notice has been cancelled, and

©when it serves the decision notice, it must refund any sum paid in relation to the relevant enforcement notice.


As cp observed, this case is rare in that the original enforcement notice has in fact been cancelled. What the authority appear to have not done is to serve notice of this decision. But this does not change the fact that the decision has been taken and the enforcement notice has been cancelled.

The regs further provide:
8)The cancellation of an enforcement notice under this regulation does not prevent the enforcement authority from serving a new enforcement notice on another person in accordance with the 2022 General Regulations.

Which must give rise to the question: what trigger action is the authority required to take before they may procedurally issue a 'new enforcement notice on another person'? Is it the cancellation of the previous notice or is it serving notice of the cancellation?

As far as I can see, of the cited cases(rows 10-24) none applies to a post May-2022 decision outside London, which is what this is.

Views?

cp8759

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I think you should go back to the registered keeper and ask that they explicitly confirm whether they have received a notification from the council telling them that liability has been transferred. If they have, ask them for a copy of whatever it is that they have received.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

tikraseth

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Hi,

I put up the following question to the Rental Agency

*Post you sending the request on 24th April for transfer of liability, did you receive any confirmation or response from the Council stating that the Liability has been transferred?
Did you get any response or communication from the council after sending the request on 24th April?*


Received the following response from them

*Please be advised to the date we have not received any communication from the council .

Should we receive, any response will be in touch .

I hope that this clarifies your enquiry.*


Thanks

cp8759

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Save that email, we'll need it if this goes to the tribunal.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

tikraseth

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I have received the Rejection Notice from the Stockport Council, for both the PCN's.
See attached. They have stated that even though I never owned the vehicle,  I was the registered keeper and hence liable. Also on the time frame it states that PCN was served within the time frame.
Thereby rejecting both my representations. It states that I have 14 days from the date of response to pay the reduced amount of 30 GBP, which then increases to 60 GBP, and also stating that I can take the case to the tribunal.


tikraseth

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I will attach the other PCN as well, but as I had mentioned on the Pepipoo site , can you look at the point that was raised by @hcandersen in response to you mentioning about the Notice Of acceptance "Legally to cancel a PCN, they need to send a Notice of Acceptance to the registered keeper, otherwise the registered keeper wouldn't know it's been cancelled. Simply amending the PCN status on the computer has no legal effect."

Also I did get an email confirmation from the Rental Agency that there was no communication received by them, after they directed the PCN's to me, by sending representation to the Council.

Do you think based on the current situation, we have a very Good probablity to win at the Tribunal? Or would you advise to pay the lower fee.., or request them to reduce it to only 1 PCN, as both happened on the same day, within a 2 hours window..?

hcansersen has responded the below on Pepipoo site:

If I may just put this into the mix.

The duty of the authority is:

4) The requirements mentioned in paragraph (3) are that enforcement authority must—

(a)consider the representations and any supporting evidence which the recipient provides, and

(b)serve on the recipient a notice of its decision (a “decision notice”) which states whether or not it accepts the representations made by the recipient.

(5) If the enforcement authority accepts the representations—

(a)it must cancel the relevant enforcement notice,

(b)its decision notice must state that the enforcement notice has been cancelled, and

©when it serves the decision notice, it must refund any sum paid in relation to the relevant enforcement notice.


As cp observed, this case is rare in that the original enforcement notice has in fact been cancelled. What the authority appear to have not done is to serve notice of this decision. But this does not change the fact that the decision has been taken and the enforcement notice has been cancelled.

The regs further provide:
8)The cancellation of an enforcement notice under this regulation does not prevent the enforcement authority from serving a new enforcement notice on another person in accordance with the 2022 General Regulations.

Which must give rise to the question: what trigger action is the authority required to take before they may procedurally issue a 'new enforcement notice on another person'? Is it the cancellation of the previous notice or is it serving notice of the cancellation?

As far as I can see, of the cited cases(rows 10-24) none applies to a post May-2022 decision outside London, which is what this is.

Views?

tikraseth

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Here is the 2nd PCN.., note the original PCN's received by the Rental Agency had a different number, and the ones received by me have 2 different PCN numbers..for the Bus Gate Violation.

cp8759

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Well there are various points worth pursuing:

1) The Notice of Rejection makes reference to the Transport Act 2000, but that legislation was abolished last year. Considering the wrong legal framework can win on its own, see Eyong Besong v Transport for London (2180132152, 03 May 2018)

2) As above, simply amending some details on the computer has no legal effect, they are required to send a Notice of Acceptance to the registered keeper, as that gives the statutory power to serve another PCN on another person, and it also gives them a further 28 days to serve the new PCN on another person (i.e. you).

Would you like me to represent you at the tribunal?
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

tikraseth

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Yes I believe you are the expert, and if you feel the probability of winning at the tribunal are very bright, would be really helpful and thankful if you can represent me at the tribunal.
What would be the next steps to take it to tribunal? Do we need to wait until the 28 days are over? Or can this be initiated earlier?
You did mention earlier that the hearing happens online and I need not be present in person at the court?
The case study that you shared, did mention about the incorrect reference to an outdated law, and hence you believe the reference to the Transport act of 2000 in the council response would get appeal in our favour?

cp8759

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I'll drop you a PM.

I would not be encouraging you to appeal if I didn't think you had a very good chance of winning.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

tikraseth

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Ok Thanks, will wait until then, do I need to take any action for now? Respond to the Council verdict, Or just wait until I hear from you..?