3. PCN Parked on Pavement (with pavement parking markings)
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H C Andersen

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Re: PCN Parked on Pavement (with pavement parking markings)
« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2024, 04:59:44 pm »
Have you sent the FoI request?

Have you seen footway parking signs in the area?
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disgruntchelt

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Re: PCN Parked on Pavement (with pavement parking markings)
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2024, 06:09:32 pm »
using Google street view I can see the pavement parking sign on Charlotte gardens (near 146) saying in marked bays only

I think that sign will apply to Oates Road.
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C_H_R_I_S

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Re: PCN Parked on Pavement (with pavement parking markings)
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2024, 01:38:18 pm »

I mean this is a sunday morning with no visible parking signs and i park in the spot but a bit out of the lines.

Ive seen plenty of cars park out of lines without gettingntickets - so from a purely common sense pov it seems ridiculous.

I only moved car further in as there was a car opposite me and ive been swiped twice in the last few months so wanted to park safely  >:(


So what should my argument be?


Please help.
Thankyou
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C_H_R_I_S

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Re: PCN Parked on Pavement (with pavement parking markings)
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2024, 01:55:39 pm »
THIS WAS A SIMILAR CASE https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/havering-pcn-parked-on-footpath/
From @cp8759:::::
Of course this should not be raised at this stage as we don't want to alert the council as to the evidential deficiencies in its case. For now a simple representation will do:

Dear London Borough of Havering,

I contend that on this occasion no contravention occurred, if you seek to pursue this penalty charge notice please would you provide a copy of the footway parking resolution duly made under section 15(4) of the Greater London Council (General Powers) Act 1974. Without sight of the resolution, I have no way of knowing whether I was actually in contravention or not.

Yours faithfully,

Make the representation online and get a screenshot of the confirmation screen, in the meantime I'll use other means to get a copy of the resolution (assuming it even exists).


Seems like they allow parking but only within lines but theres nowhere stating this so it makes it very confusing for motorists.
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C_H_R_I_S

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Re: PCN Parked on Pavement (with pavement parking markings)
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2024, 01:59:03 pm »
Quote from: disgruntchelt on November 25, 2024, 06:09:32 pm
using Google street view I can see the pavement parking sign on Charlotte gardens (near 146) saying in marked bays only

I think that sign will apply to Oates Road.


https://havering.traffweb.app/traffweb/1/TrafficOrders

Here i see it allows 2 wheel parking. I didnt see any sign NEAR where I was parking stating I had to be exactly within the lines.
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C_H_R_I_S

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Re: PCN Parked on Pavement (with pavement parking markings)
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2024, 02:01:50 pm »
Quote from: H C Andersen on November 25, 2024, 04:59:44 pm
Have you sent the FoI request?

Have you seen footway parking signs in the area?




So i see this TINY sign at the beginining of a road BEFORE Oates road that I parked on. Surely this is insufficient signage considern I parked about 300 metres away from it with no other visible signs.
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cp8759

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Re: PCN Parked on Pavement (with pavement parking markings)
« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2024, 02:12:17 pm »
@C_H_R_I_S would you have passed this sign on your way to the location where you parked, and is that sign still there?
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Hippocrates

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Re: PCN Parked on Pavement (with pavement parking markings)
« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2024, 06:38:39 pm »
Their website is pants. Why? No grounds. Let's play Scrabble instead:

Personal Details
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Please note submission of this form will remove your opportunity to settle at the discounted charge should your challenge be unsuccessful.

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I am seriously vexed by this council's incompetence and attitude.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2024, 06:42:56 pm by Hippocrates »
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There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

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H C Andersen

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Re: PCN Parked on Pavement (with pavement parking markings)
« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2024, 01:55:07 pm »
OP, I don't know where you're going with this at the moment.

IMO, you won't get them to cancel whatever arguments you put forward. What your reps will do is to draw their reasoning after which you could put more a detailed argument in formal reps.

I thought I could park with two wheels on the footway as other motorists can be seen to be doing in the CEO's photos. There are some historical markings along the road but these are widely ignored by both motorists and CEOs.

Did you submit the FoI request to the council, not parking?
« Last Edit: December 01, 2024, 09:48:12 pm by H C Andersen »
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C_H_R_I_S

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Re: PCN Parked on Pavement (with pavement parking markings)
« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2024, 08:21:52 pm »
Quote from: H C Andersen on December 01, 2024, 01:55:07 pm
OP, I don't know where you're going with this at the moment.

IMO, you won't get them to cancel whatever arguments you put forward. What your reps will do os to draw their reasoning after which you could put more a detailed argument in formal reps.

I thought I could park with two wheels on the footway as other motorists can be seen to be doing in the CEO's photos. There are some historical markings along the road but these are widely ignored by both motorists and CEOs.

Did you submit the FoI request to the council, not parking?

I didnt - what would that achieve?
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C_H_R_I_S

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Re: PCN Parked on Pavement (with pavement parking markings)
« Reply #25 on: December 01, 2024, 08:24:23 pm »
Quote from: Hippocrates on November 30, 2024, 06:38:39 pm
Their website is pants. Why? No grounds. Let's play Scrabble instead:

Personal Details
Please Enter Your Details. We need this information in order to respond formally to your challenge.

Please note submission of this form will remove your opportunity to settle at the discounted charge should your challenge be unsuccessful.

Title:*
Forename:*
Surname:*
Company Details
Company name is only required if the representation is on behalf of a company.

Company Name:
Address Details
Address:*


Town:*
County:
Postcode:*
Telephone:
Email:
Your Comment
* Please enter the reasons for your challenge in the box below:

Supporting Evidence
You can upload images to support your challenge, such as a Pay And Display ticket. A maximum of three items can be uploaded. Please be advised there is a file size limit of 2MB.


Click Browse to upload evidence
BrowseNo file chosen
Click Browse to upload evidence
BrowseNo file chosen
Click Browse to upload evidence
BrowseNo file chosen
* Required Information

**

I am seriously vexed by this council's incompetence and attitude.

Wow - well my success rate even with your help is about 65% so Im not sure I would risk an appeal now unless I was given a good argument.

This is disgraceful of them.
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H C Andersen

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Re: PCN Parked on Pavement (with pavement parking markings)
« Reply #26 on: December 01, 2024, 09:57:57 pm »
So, send a FoI request to the council, NOT parking.

Why bother, to summarise your last post!

I refer to the markings on the footway as can be seen in the attached GSV screenshots. I should be grateful if you would advise me as to their purpose and, if in connection with a disapplication of the London-wide statutory footway parking prohibition, the location of the nearest mandatory traffic signs which alone convey the meaning of these markings to motorists and a copy of the council resolution which authorised the parking of vehicles in this manner. For your information, s15 Greater London Council (General Powers) Act 1974 refers.


So far we seem to answer our own questions with posters putting themselves out to hunt through GSV and other sources and instead of putting the issue to the council (NOT parking) regarding what formal arrangements they have made, if any, to disapply the governing legislation you harp on about it being a Sunday etc. ..as if this makes any difference.

IMO, your feelings of injustice alone won't win, you need to take action.

But it's your choice.
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stamfordman

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Re: PCN Parked on Pavement (with pavement parking markings)
« Reply #27 on: December 02, 2024, 10:16:40 am »
OK so I was wrong about duty to select a lower level contravention - it's the opposite:

Where a vehicle is parked in contravention of more than one restriction, e.g. parked on a footway in a restricted street during prescribed hours, only one PCN should be issued. CEOs should be instructed on which contravention takes precedence in such circumstances. In a situation where a vehicle is committing a higher and a lower level contravention, the higher level penalty should take precedence, as this has been identified as the more serious contravention.

So here they should be put to the test that the footway ban applies inches outside the marked footway bay where footway parking is allowed and that there was a choice of two contraventions (the other being the lower level parked outside the bay).
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H C Andersen

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Re: PCN Parked on Pavement (with pavement parking markings)
« Reply #28 on: December 02, 2024, 10:25:19 am »
the other being the lower level parked outside the bay).

IMO, this applies only to parking places with 'park wholly within' restrictions.

There's no such provision within the GLC etc. Act.
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stamfordman

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Re: PCN Parked on Pavement (with pavement parking markings)
« Reply #29 on: December 02, 2024, 02:15:55 pm »
Quote from: H C Andersen on December 02, 2024, 10:25:19 am
the other being the lower level parked outside the bay).

IMO, this applies only to parking places with 'park wholly within' restrictions.

There's no such provision within the GLC etc. Act.

Point taken, in which case the only contravention open to a CEO is footway parking? There are 'park in marked bays' signs in the area. I'm unsure if this overrides a footway resolution.
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