Author Topic: PCN number: PK65201252,Canal Street Multi Storey Car Park Perth, parking in an area reserved for Council Vehicles only  (Read 1077 times)

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Following directions to ev charging, my car was parked in an ev charging bay in a multistory car park in Perth
https://maps.app.goo.gl/bpqUrELejqFC9qH18

A PCN was left on the windscreen

I wrote to the MP, then my MP (as you can't write directly), as I was angered by this- there is no signage anywhere in amongst the parking bays. Only white signs in the white painted rafters, at 90degrees to anyone coming down the ramp to park.

I am also very frustrated by the pcn having a non-working website as the appeals process, and a non working chatbot on the website to direct appeals, and various other things- why isn't there an online appeals from the notice to keeper! grr

My car is a lease, and the letter went to them, they paid the fine and are now going to charge me, they say I can still appeal for a refund :/ This is very annoying as I had told the to disregard the PCN via email months ago

the pcn is here
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/wmiu4sunul7rwakycnnp0/pcn.pdf?rlkey=ionvudx4tegmf9f0wytlelea0&dl=0
The notice to keeper is in these two links.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/6xnnnnw61wbgzjxpyex5y/Perth1.png?rlkey=1dctyrxyql1f2wkrtvpo84xcn&dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/e6i6capekwqoppdn5nlnr/Perth2.png?rlkey=bk6g119h1l8ksdkxuw2614a6o&dl=0

My corresponence with them via my MP is at this link

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/pmzr6gy46im57yjh6qpj9/lettter_to_mp_one.docx?rlkey=emjlxdad6rgqgf8puyrx0xba6&dl=0


(I know I shouldn't have engaged them, just really believed it wouldn't go this far, the signage is a joke
(pics in the letter all there)

Please help if it's possible, I think it's criminal that they are trapping people with such rubbish signage, and am so annoyed at the obfuscated appeals process :/

Also worried I am in a bind now that the lease company paid the fine angry.gif
« Last Edit: November 01, 2023, 09:36:31 am by Verdomde »

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Your Dropbox links don't work, probably because you used cut-and-past from Pepipoo

Now the penalty has been paid, the legal process is closed, so not sure what advice we can give as this is a forum for dealing with active cases.

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Sorry, I updated the links

FYI- in case it helps anyone else, the front advice doesn't match the advice on the back regarding the reduced amount - £30 on the back, £50 on the front

The advice from the lease company was in the below :


Reference:                                        PK65201252
Date/Time:                                        17/08/2023 12:34:00
Authority/Operator Name:             Parking Services - Perth and Kinross Council
Document Type:                              NTO
Estimated Cost:                              £100.00                       
 
We have paid this for one of the following reasons:
Legislation requires immediate payment by the registered keeper.
We have been instructed to pay on your behalf by your employer.
The offence has been escalated back to Tusker.
We are unable to transfer liability.
 
We have therefore Paid £100.00 on your behalf along with a £10.00 + VAT administration fee which your employer will be deducting from your salary.
The above payment has been made to avoid escalated costs to both you and Tusker. It may be possible for you to challenge this fine, to do so please contact the issuing authority directly.
 
What do you need to do?
If you accept liability no further action is required.
If you do not accept liability, please appeal to the authority.  You have 28 days, from the time the notice is issued, to do this and instructions on how to appeal are included on the notification.  To enable you to speak with the authority we have attached a Third Party Authorisation letter.  You will need to send this with your appeal.
Please note we are unable to appeal on your behalf as we are not the driver of the vehicle.
 
Should you be successful in your appeal and the authority issues us with a refund, we will credit the penalty charge amount back to you. 

 

Sounds like, to your knowledge, they are wrong about my being able to challenge?

Did you challenge the PCN as per the instructions on the back of the PCN?
If so, what did you write?
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Sounds like, to your knowledge, they are wrong about my being able to challenge?
To explain all the ins and outs would take ages, so I'll cut to the chase: you can arguably reclaim the penalty from the lease company, but you have to be willing to take the lease company to court.

In short, you can only challenge a PCN if you don't pay it, payment deprives you of the right to appeal. Where they say "Legislation requires immediate payment by the registered keeper" they're being incompetent and thick: legislation gives the registered keeper 28 days to pay or challenge, they should have challenged by requesting a transfer of liability.

The bottom line is lease and hire companies are incredibly thick and stupid and they won't accept they're wrong unless and until a court tells them, the corollary of this is that unless you're actually willing to take them to court, there's no point in doing anything else. Sending letters threatening to take them to court without following through would be a waste of time.

The question therefore is: are you willing to have a massive row with the lease company and take them to court to enforce your rights?

In parallel, you could contact the council and ask them to refund the payment on the basis that you want to make representations, and on the odd occasion this can work. The problem is that if the council simply ignore you or say no, there is no recourse open to you.

Also as a general rule, involving MPs in PCNs is a waste of time, they're more likely to mess things up than anything else.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2023, 09:34:02 pm by cp8759 »
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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Hi, thanks for the advice

Luckily I was able to get the lease company to reverse the payment, so now am able to deal with the appeals process. I've until the 5th December I think, though I'd like to start asap, as am not very sure if that's correct

Anyone able to take a look at my ramblings on the links and see if I've the making of a good enough defence?

If I appeal with they freeze the process (it says after 05/12 they will add another £50 charge)

I don't know how they get away with such excessive amounts?

Thanks


Luckily I was able to get the lease company to reverse the payment, so now am able to deal with the appeals process. I've until the 5th December I think, though I'd like to start asap, as am not very sure if that's correct..

Sadly, as cp observed 'lease companies are thick and stupid'.

So, what do you mean by 'reverse the payment'?

Also, unless you have a Notice to Owner in your name you have no standing in this matter, however much you are chomping at the bit to get involved. Only the recipient of a NTO may make representations.

So, we and you need clarity pl.

Do you have a NTO in your name? If so, pl post.
If not, what other correspondence do you have?
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Just a quick response, I am in work and don't think I have the docs, I have an NTO in my name it is identical to the one posted above except sent to me and dated 8/11, the lease company sent the council a release or similar to allow them to contact me.

The lease company cancelled payment of the fine, so it hasn't been paid
« Last Edit: November 14, 2023, 11:20:15 am by Verdomde »

I'm still on the hunt for the fine print of clarity.

To recap:
The lease company received a NTO which they paid;
They invoiced you?
They subsequently 'cancelled payment', how we don't know. Presumably they have notified you that their invoice has been cancelled.
The council have issued a NTO to you.

The first thing which jumps out is prospective procedural impropriety. The council may not issue a NTO to you unless, in response to representations made by the lease company, they have formally cancelled their NTO. There is no such thing as the lease company issuing 'a release', this is not how the procedure works.

I suggest you contact your lease company and ask for copies of the council's Notice of Acceptance of their representations(which is the formal cancellation) and the reps themselves.

If the second NTO is dated 8 Nov. then you have until 7 Dec. to submit your formal reps.
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From tusker (the lease company)

I have been through all the correspondence from yourself and have located the email dated 23/8/23 where you request Tusker not make payment against a fine issued to your Salary Sacrifice Vehicle.

Within that email, you have not provided any of the PNC details or your vehicle registration only an SQ reference which does not relate to any fine within our system therefore we have no way of tracking the notice should it arrive. Now, over 2 months later your appeal appears been rejected as the increased notice has been issued to Tusker as we are the registered keeper and in line with your SS4C agreement Tusker would be looking to make full payment and invoice your employer to be deducted from your salary.

On this occasion, I have recalled the payment that has been made which leaves the notice open again and we will request a transfer of liability to you. Please be aware that by making this request;
•   The council have no obligation to accept it as the agreement that we hold for the VW iD3 is not with yourself but with your employer, and your employer will not allow us to transfer notices in their name.
•   You will be liable for any increased costs associated with this notice
•   Should the transfer be rejected, Tusker will make payment at the amount requested at that time and invoice this for deduction from your salary and you will be notified by email that the payment has been made.

By Tusker taking this action it does not set a precedent for further notices that may be issued to your Salary Sacrifice Vehicle in the future and all such notices will be processed as detailed in your scheme policy, Drivers Guide and agreement.

Tusker sent me a copy of the liability transfer, but not sure where it is, will find it at home and scan it if it's useful?

Tusker sent me a copy of the liability transfer, but not sure where it is, will find it at home and scan it if it's useful?
Tusker is particularly thick and stupid, "your employer will not allow us to transfer notices in their name", that's not how it works, the employer has no choice. Still, if the council has gone ahead and accepted Tusker's representation the whole point becomes academic, so I wouldn't worry too much about it.

At this point I would suggest you post up all the documents you've received, redact your name and address but label every document so that we know what is addressed to you and what is addressed to Tusker.

Also, have you got the council photos? If yes, please post them up. If not, please contact the council and ask that they email the photos to you.

Lastly the parking places order here https://tro.transportappeals.scot/TRO/Perth%20and%20Kinross%20Council/Off-Street-Car-Parks-Order-2015-signed.PDF doesn't mention anything about parking places reserved for council vehicles only, and I also cannot see anything that creates any restricted areas. I had a quick look at the amending orders at https://tro.transportappeals.scot/authority_tro/?authority=Perth%20and%20Kinross%20Council (you need to filter to "off-street") and none of the amending orders create any such restrictions either, so it looks like the council doesn't get past go with this one.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2023, 11:33:12 pm by cp8759 »
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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From your document link (the first one)
Restrictions on use of car parks
22
When in or near any car park, signs are erected or surface markings are laid down for the purpose of
indicating the entrance or exit thereof, a specified direction of travel, an area of the car park which is
to be kept clear of vehicles, or for any other purpose, no person shall drive or cause or permit to be
driven or shall leave any vehicle other than in accordance with the instructions indicated by means of
the said signs or markings.

wouldn't that cover parking places reserved for council vehicles only

I have links to all the docs and pictures above, I'll try find time to edit the uploads as soon as I possibly can
« Last Edit: November 16, 2023, 10:19:26 am by Verdomde »

wouldn't that cover parking places reserved for council vehicles only
That is arguable, but the counter-argument is that an order is meant to designate what's what and the signs merely reflect the order.

Otherwise a council could make a 1 line TRO for all roads and car parks within the council area, simply saying that you must obey all signs that the council might put up anywhere, which would make a mockery of the whole system.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order