3. PCN Not Loading while Parked in a Loading Bay, 3 mins timer started 2 mins after parking.
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PCN Not Loading while Parked in a Loading Bay, 3 mins timer started 2 mins after parking.
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I had to collect some items from a shop that was ceasing trading the following day and parked in the loading bay outside. I started a timer the moment I parked and took a photo of the shop as soon as I left the car (because I was sad to see it go) and the time on that photo was 1606. The traffic warden started the three minute timer literally two minutes later at 1608, while I was in the queue to speak to the owner.

The item I was collecting didn't appear to be working and the owner had to have a fiddle with the item to see why not, in those few minutes I took the opportunity to take some video of the shop and even into the shop corridor outside and I caught on tape the fact that I already had a ticket!

By the time I got to the car to see I had been given a ticket I looked at my timer  and according to it I still had 6 minutes left. I did not leave the shop other than to go into the shop. (I may have briefly stepped outside on the pavement to video the front of the shop but went straight back in) and by then my goods were ready.

There will be CCTV of the street I'm sure as it's a very busy road and the council must make a lot of money issuing tickets there. I just feel this is very unfair.

Anyway, I took a photo of my car in the bay and if they had given me a ticket for my wheels being outside of the bay markings they would have been bang to rights, but they did not, so I feel I should fight it. Can I charge them for the admin time? I could so do without all this. Anyway, hope you can help. I used to have an account on PepiPoo and you guys have always helped so much and I'm so grateful you're still here.

Front of PCN:

Back of PCN:

Image of Car in Bay:

Location of Vehicle/Shop: https://maps.app.goo.gl/ZcTtzBippSo3zjdq5

Screenshot of Timer:
« Last Edit: October 21, 2024, 02:32:14 pm by ErinFury »
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Re: PCN Not Loading while Parked in a Loading Bay, 3 mins timer started 2 mins after parking.
« Reply #1 on: »
I had to collect some items from a shop

By the time I got to the car to see I had been given a ticket I looked at my timer  and according to it I still had 6 minutes left. I did not leave the shop other than to go into the shop. (I may have briefly stepped outside on the pavement to video the front of the shop but went straight back in) and by then my goods were ready.

OP, subject to any council policy regarding a minimum period of observation for this contravention, whether the PCN is unfair depends upon you fleshing out your account. As it stands, the CEO was perfectly correct in issuing a PCN because all they could see was a parked car. You might have known what was going on away from the car, but how would the CEO?

So:
Collecting - were you collecting or were you shopping e.g. had goods been put aside awaiting collection or were you simply browsing with the possibility that you would emerge with nothing?

What were the items?
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Re: PCN Not Loading while Parked in a Loading Bay, 3 mins timer started 2 mins after parking.
« Reply #2 on: »
Hi, I have found the receipts for when they were dropped in for the two items that I was having repaired, both were lights. It took more than three mintues for the owner to get to me in the queue and then locate said items and to show me they were working. One receipt is dated 3rd August and the other 9th Sept. Life had gotten in the way of collecting them and it became really important as the shop was closing.
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Re: PCN Not Loading while Parked in a Loading Bay, 3 mins timer started 2 mins after parking.
« Reply #3 on: »
I suggest you start any challenge at the beginning and continue with simple facts.

Perhaps:
On ** and ** I took ** and *** into *** to have them repaired, see enclosed receipts. I was contacted on approx. **** to tell me the items were ready for collection. On 18 October, I parked in the loading bay outside the shop and went in to collect the items. You may or may not be aware that *** was closing permanently on 19th, therefore 18th was my last practical opportunity to collect the items.

When I got inside there was something of a queue- presumably because others were aware that it was closing- and so I had to wait a couple of minutes to be served. Even then, I asked the owner to show that the items were working because any faults obviously couldn't be rectified later. He did so quickly and I then took my items and returned to my car.

Would my approach. If there's anything factually incorrect then pl amend.
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Re: PCN Not Loading while Parked in a Loading Bay, 3 mins timer started 2 mins after parking.
« Reply #4 on: »
@ErinFury I've ordered the traffic order, but in the meantime please can you confirm how heavy / bulky these lights were? Do you have photos of the boxes they were in?
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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Re: PCN Not Loading while Parked in a Loading Bay, 3 mins timer started 2 mins after parking.
« Reply #5 on: »
Erin

The key to this is how heavy/bulky the lights were and hence cp 8759's question and how reasonable it was to park in the loading bay in order to collect them. I would suggest if chandeliers then the answer is yes and if modest desk lights probably no. Here's the bible on loading. Now old but principles still apply. You will find cases in here to support your appeal. Look at the section headed "paperwork and other delays" on p7.


https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/default/files/keycases/LOADADJ.pdf

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Re: PCN Not Loading while Parked in a Loading Bay, 3 mins timer started 2 mins after parking.
« Reply #6 on: »
@ErinFury I've got hold of the traffic order which is The Ealing (Free Loading Places) Order 2017, the relevant entry is item 19 on page 12.

I also replied to your email but have not heard back?
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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Re: PCN Not Loading while Parked in a Loading Bay, 3 mins timer started 2 mins after parking.
« Reply #7 on: »
Thanks ever so much @cp8759. I will craft a letter (thanks for tips on format @HCAndersen) and put it in as soon as I can.

Would it be considered unnecessarily antagonistic to use Tribunal case references as per @Chaseman's documentation? Or is it better to go in looking like the layperson I am?

It's already over a week since it's issue and I probably don't have much longer to get my appeal in.

Best

Erin
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Re: PCN Not Loading while Parked in a Loading Bay, 3 mins timer started 2 mins after parking.
« Reply #8 on: »
@ErinFury it's an informal representation, not an appeal, please don't mix the two terms as it could cause all manner of problems and confusion.

Because it's only an informal representation there's no massive rush, I suggest you start by posting a draft on here for review in the first instance.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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