3. PCN Newham London 52m prohibition Royal Albert Way E16
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PCN Newham London 52m prohibition Royal Albert Way E16
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I have received the attached PCN.

Around 1040pm I apparently drove through a round sign with a car and motorbike on.   The sign was just off the roundabout, and there was no way I could have seen the sign before exiting the roundabout.  Therefore the only way to have avoided this would have been to reverse back onto a roundabout.

I do not recall seeing any signs before this one warning me.  I don't believe the sign was illuminated either, and it was in the evening.

I am not from the area at all and am not familiar with the roads... the sat nav took me this way (I understand this is not an excuse for not following road signage)

Do I have grounds to appeal this?  It seems wholly unfair and I reiterate there was no way I could have seen this sign before exiting the roundabout due to the positioning of it.

Thanks for your advice.

https://imgur.com/a/SV7LV3M
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Re: PCN Newham London 52m prohibition Royal Albert Way E16
« Reply #1 on: »
We've seen this location before. The signs have two displays, one for 40 mph during the day, and one for "Flying Motorbike" during the restricted night hours, this is to prevent "cruising" and other car-related unsocial behaviour.

As far as I recall, one appeal at London Tribunals won on the basis that the sign did not convey the full TRO, in tht there is no information on the sign as to when the restriction applies, so it is impossible to find this out.

There may be an avance warning sign, but the last time I looked in GSV, it wasm't sufficiently up-to-date, so you may have to do some legwork with a camera.
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Re: PCN Newham London 52m prohibition Royal Albert Way E16
« Reply #2 on: »
Video - the sign should be illuminated maybe?

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Re: PCN Newham London 52m prohibition Royal Albert Way E16
« Reply #3 on: »
Quote from: stamfordman on August 20, 2024, 11:54:09 am
Video - the sign should be illuminated maybe?

[img width=600 height=337.9976806640625]https://i.imgur.com/7v1GGXv.gif[/img]
The signs are back-lit.
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Re: PCN Newham London 52m prohibition Royal Albert Way E16
« Reply #4 on: »
Quote from: Incandescent on August 20, 2024, 11:52:53 am
We've seen this location before. The signs have two displays, one for 40 mph during the day, and one for "Flying Motorbike" during the restricted night hours, this is to prevent "cruising" and other car-related unsocial behaviour.

As far as I recall, one appeal at London Tribunals won on the basis that the sign did not convey the full TRO, in tht there is no information on the sign as to when the restriction applies, so it is impossible to find this out.

There may be an avance warning sign, but the last time I looked in GSV, it wasm't sufficiently up-to-date, so you may have to do some legwork with a camera.

Thanks for the info, I wonder if it is the same appeal as the one discussed here on reddit recently:

from r/wherewasthistaken


Is there a way to find the appeal grounds or even the original appeal letter?

Also when you mention the advance warning sign and doing some legwork with a camera, do you mean going back to the location to take pictures?  Unfortunately this isn't an option as I live 4 hours away!
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Re: PCN Newham London 52m prohibition Royal Albert Way E16
« Reply #5 on: »
Unfortunately, this is the latest GSV view of the entry to Royal Albert Way from the Gallions Roundabout.  The two 40 mph signs have been replaced by a dual-display back-lit sign that alternates between 40 mph and a Flying Motorbike sign.

There are a load of successful appeals here, so well worth following up, although you'll have to risk the full PCN penalty as the council like the money so will refuse your reps.
If you enter the following details into the London Tribunals page for the statutory registers you'll see them.

Environment and Traffic Adjudicators
Location : Royal Albert Way
Date from : 01 01 2023
Decision : type 'appeal allowed'
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Re: PCN Newham London 52m prohibition Royal Albert Way E16
« Reply #6 on: »
Searching the Register
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/about/registers-appeals

on the terms 'London Borough  of Newhan' and 'Royal Albert Way'

reveals 109 cases, mostly this year, of which 63 were allowed.


Unmfortunately, you will have to trawl through the individual 109 cases returned by the search engine to see which ones were for conravention 52M at the same location and timing as yours to find cases which similar to yours. It is important to check both allowed and refused cases to strengthen your own reasoning.
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Re: PCN Newham London 52m prohibition Royal Albert Way E16
« Reply #7 on: »
Quote from: John U.K. on August 20, 2024, 01:09:21 pm
Searching the Register
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/about/registers-appeals

on the terms 'London Borough  of Newhan' and 'Royal Albert Way'

reveals 109 cases, mostly this year, of which 63 were allowed.


Unmfortunately, you will have to trawl through the individual 109 cases returned by the search engine to see which ones were for conravention 52M at the same location and timing as yours to find cases which similar to yours. It is important to check both allowed and refused cases to strengthen your own reasoning.

That's really helpful thank you.  Can I check is the tribunal incase the council refuse my initial appeal?  Is there any cost to this, and do I have to attend in person?
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Re: PCN Newham London 52m prohibition Royal Albert Way E16
« Reply #8 on: »
The whole process is explained here:
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/understanding-enforcement-process/moving-traffic-pcn-enforcement-process

You are looking at successful appeals on the Register to find good arguments which you can make in your reps to the Council about your own case.
They are, however, likely to refuse, meaning you then have to proceed to the tribunal.
If you win at tribunal, you pay nothing, if you lose, you are liable for the full penalty.

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Re: PCN Newham London 52m prohibition Royal Albert Way E16
« Reply #9 on: »
You need to submit a "Represention" to the Council against the postal PCN. Get this done before close of business this Thursday to be within the 14 day discount window. If or rather when they reject they will re-offer the discount rate of £65.

If they reject then you will have the option to appeal to the independednt adjudicqator, but you'll be in for the full penalty of £130. You cannot appeal until the Council issues a Notice of Rejection.

This below issues seem to win. These might have been suprseded on the ground, so really you'd be best off revisiting the scene of your crime in daylight and taking your own photos. Or perhaps one of the forum members can get some photos.

There is no hours of operation plate below the flying motorcycle sign. (Your video shows something lighting up as you passed.)
The sign is on a bend as you exit the roundabout. You are committed to the turn exiting the roundabout before you can read and assimilate the sign.
There are two lanes exiting the roundabout onto Royal Docks Road but there is only one sign on the nearside pavement.
Supposedly there are advance warning signs on the approaches to the roundabout however they relate to camera enforcement and not the "no motor vehicles".
The warning signs don't specify which exit might be closed to traffic.
All the signs might be legal however taken as a whole they are inadequate to convey the part-time restriction.
The restriction signs don't agree with the traffic order.
The signage arrangements are very unusual and the Council have a duty to ensure that the signs properly convey the restrictions

I fully expect that Newham will reject your representation no matter what you say. So really it depends on the Adjudicator on the day. The good news is that some of the more experienced and longstanding Adjudicators seem to uphold the inadequate signage arguments.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2024, 06:12:02 pm by Enceladus »
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Re: PCN Newham London 52m prohibition Royal Albert Way E16
« Reply #10 on: »
Quote from: Enceladus on August 20, 2024, 03:09:46 pm
You need to submit a "Represention" to the Council against the postal PCN. Get this done before close of business this Thursday to be within the 14 day discount window. If or rather when they reject they will re-offer the discount rate of £65.

If they reject then you will have the option to appeal to the independednt adjudicqator, but you'll be in for the full penalty of £130. You cannot appeal until the Council issues a Notice of Rejection.

This below issues seem to win. These might have been suprseded on the ground, so really you'd be best off revisiting the scene of your crime in daylight and taking your own photos. Or perhaps one of the forum members can get some photos.

There is no hours of operation plate below the flying motorcycle sign. (Your video shows something lighting up as you passed.)
The sign is on a bend as you exit the roundabout. You are committed to the turn exiting the roundabout before you can read and assimilate the sign.
There are two lanes exiting the roundabout onto Royal Docks Road but there is only one sign on the nearside pavement.
Supposedly there are advance warning signs on the approaches to the roundabout however they relate to camera enforcement and not the "no motor vehicles".
The warning signs don't specify which exit might be closed to traffic.
All the signs might be legal however taken as a whole they are inadequate to convey the part-time restriction.
The restriction signs don't agree with the traffic order.
The signage arrangements are very unusual and the Council have a duty to ensure that the signs properly convey the restrictions

I fully expect that Newham will reject your representation no matter what you say. So really it depends on the Adjudicator on the day. The good news is that some of the more experienced and longstanding Adjudicators seem to uphold the inadequate signage arguments.

Thank you.  I've included many of these points in the appeal, will update the status here.
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Re: PCN Newham London 52m prohibition Royal Albert Way E16
« Reply #11 on: »
Sorry to bump an old thread.   I have my hearing tomorrow for this (telephone hearing).  Any tips or advice?  If asked to plead my case, I really just plan to reiterate the summary of evidence I submitted.  Should mention anything else?
Many thanks
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Re: PCN Newham London 52m prohibition Royal Albert Way E16
« Reply #12 on: »
Good luck tomorrow.
I would just add: Exiting the roundabout and you're confronted with a No motor vehicles prhibition. What do they expect a driver to do, stop and reverse back onto the roundabout? There are no advance warning signs about the prohibition on vehicles, only signs that there is camara enforcement.
                 
Below is a well expressed recent case.

"PCN   PN75426523
Contravention date   30 Jun 2024
Contravention time   00:11:00
Contravention location   Royal Albert Way
Penalty amount   GBP 130.00
Contravention   Fail comply prohibition on certain types vehicle
Referral date   -
Decision Date   23 Oct 2024
Adjudicator   Edward Houghton
Appeal decision   Appeal allowed
Direction   
cancel the Penalty Charge Notice.

Reasons   
The Appellant appeals in the following terms:-

“There is no dispute that the vehicle entered a restricted area. However the the only evidence of the signage denoting the restriction is on the CCTV footage, on which one restriction sign is visible on the left-hand side of the carriageway. No time restrictions are visible in the CCTV footage provided. The photographs provided by the EA in the map/site report do not show the restrictions signage . They show a number of advanced warning signs. It appears that the restricted street is encountered shortly after leaving a roundabout. The advance warning signs all refer to "Traffic camera enforcement" upon exiting the roundabout (Kindly find evidence picture for a signage which was placed at Atlantis avenue from which I joined the roundabout). However none of the signs make it clear that there is No motor Vehicle restriction in force and the signage could well be construed as indicating enforcement of a different nature such as speed limit. There is no diagrammatic indication that the entry to one of the roundabout exits is effectively prohibited. By the time a vehicle exits the roundabout, it is too late and might be hazardous to take evasive action. The road upon which the restriction is located appears to be a dual carriageway and therefore a vehicle who has exited the roundabout has no apparent way of avoiding the restriction in a safe manner.”


I agree with every word of this, and have quoted the appeal in full as I am unable to improve upon it. I have held in a number of cases that warning signage at this location is required and that the signs provided by the Council are inadequate in that they do not give any warning of the actual restriction. For the avoidance of doubt it is a legal requirement for a Council to give adequate notice of the restriction it relies on. The Appeal is allowed."
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Re: PCN Newham London 52m prohibition Royal Albert Way E16
« Reply #13 on: »
I just want to say a huge thank you to all that helped me with this.   My appeal was successful (despite the adjudicator previously refusing on a similar case)!

Adjudicator's Reasons
The appellant attended the telephone hearing of this appeal today. The council did not attend the
hearing (it not being expected to do so).
The contravention alleged in these proceedings was that this vehicle at Royal Albert Way failed to
comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle.
Royal Albert Way leads off a roundabout as shown in the council's evidence produced at 'H'. Signage
is illuminated when the prohibition is in force.
The appellant argued that signage was posted on a bend as the motorist exits the roundabout he
being committed to the turn before he was able to note the prohibition that applied.
CCTV camera advance warning signage was posted by the council but no signage giving advance
warning of the prohibition itself.
The council did not in this case produce any images showing the motorist's approach to the turn (it
having done so in a previous appeal I considered arising from this prohibition).
On the council's online footage of the incident it was not clear to me that signage was illuminated.
I could not be satisfied against this background as to the clarity and sufficiency of the council's
signage and I found for that reason that the contravention had not been proved.
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Re: PCN Newham London 52m prohibition Royal Albert Way E16
« Reply #14 on: »
Well done! Justice has prevailed.
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