Author Topic: PCN Newham Council for loading bay (unmarked with inadequate signage)  (Read 1329 times)

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Re: PCN Newham Council for loading bay (unmarked with inadequate signage)
« Reply #15 on: »
Please post up the text of your "formal representation" that you submitted via email on the 14th Dec.
What email address did you send it to.

The NTO that you have posted says that you need to use their website and a security code to submit representations. I don't see any postal or email address on the NTO. Are there any provided?

However the email response from the council does refer to your "representation" several times and also gives you a deadline of the 27th Jab to pay at the discount rate of £65. And sure enough the amount outstanding on the Council site yesterday was £64.

Re: PCN Newham Council for loading bay (unmarked with inadequate signage)
« Reply #16 on: »
I submitted the representation via the Council website and was given a code in return for my appeal. I have a screenshot of this. I no longer have the full text for my full representation, however, I used the following for the main body of my Grounds of Appeal.

"**Lack of Adequate Signage:**

According to Regulation 18 of The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996, it is required that traffic signs indicating the effect of an order be placed to ensure that they are adequate to convey the order to the road users. In this case, there was no signage indicating the hours of operation or the specific restrictions of the loading bay where my vehicle was parked. The only indication is a marking on the road, which is insufficient without accompanying signs. This lack of proper signage does not comply with the legal requirements and thus invalidates the PCN[/i]".

I feel as though I have uploaded sufficient information over the past week. In regards to next steps, what do you think the best course of action is?

Re: PCN Newham Council for loading bay (unmarked with inadequate signage)
« Reply #17 on: »
I don’t think many others would response to this forum, seeing as though you’re the only that seems to be helping. In that case, perhaps it’d be better to er on the side of caution and appeal to the independent adjudicator immediately? I don’t really want this charge to rack up any further and bring any more headache down the line. However I have no problem drafting a witness statement if required and can do this myself. Please do let me know what you think. Thank you.
\\
\maybe others, like me, are watching with interest and noting that you have been givem accurate advice.

Is there anmything you don't understand?

Re: PCN Newham Council for loading bay (unmarked with inadequate signage)
« Reply #18 on: »
I was responding to the Enceladus response saying see what others have to say when he was the only responding. Fortunately someone else did respond earlier.

I’m just wondering whether it would be better to appeal to the adjudicator immediately or wait for the Order for Recovery. Seeing these constant letters and reminders gives me anxiety, that’s all, and the last thing that I want is bailiffs turning up on my doorstep.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2025, 09:38:14 am by RoutineSystem4728 »

Re: PCN Newham Council for loading bay (unmarked with inadequate signage)
« Reply #19 on: »
If you wait for the Order for Recovery then you can submit, to the Traffic Enforcement Centre at Northampton County Court, the Witness Statement that will be included. You can use the ground of non-receipt of the Notice of Rejection to your formal representation. Do it within the time limit and the TEC will order the OfR revoked and the CC cancelled, so you'll be back to a liability of £130. The case will be referred to the Adjudicator for direction on how to proceed. Likely the case will be heard as an appeal. Since there doesn't seem to be a properly formatted NoR I would expect the Adjudicator to uphold your appeal and you would have nothing to pay. There are several other procedural mistakes especially the serving of the Charge Cert before they were allowed to.

But if you lose you would be liable for £129. Right now it looks you can close the case for £64.

Stick with the process and there won't be any bailiff enforcement.

The key issue for the Adjudicator will be whether or not a formal representation was submitted and delivered to the Council on or before the 13th of Jan. On the one hand the answer seems to be yes as you have an email confirming they received a representation. On the other hand it may be that you did not submit in the manner specified on the NTO.

"I submitted the representation via the Council website and was given a code in return for my appeal. I have a screenshot of this. I no longer have the full text for my full representation, however, I used the following for the main body of my Grounds of Appeal."

Please post up the "screenshot"? Blank out your name and address and leave the rest visible. And please let's see the email or letter with the code "for my appeal". Or was that another screenshot?
« Last Edit: January 21, 2025, 03:00:38 pm by Enceladus »

Re: PCN Newham Council for loading bay (unmarked with inadequate signage)
« Reply #20 on: »
Thank you for your in-depth answer and assistance throughout this process. I appreciate it very much.

The written representation was done through the council portal, I have attached the screenshot.

It seems as though, even though the council are in the wrong here, to just pay the £64, which would give me a peace of mind. I imagine I would end up making a silly mistake i.e missing a deadline/not filing something correctly in the process of trying to fight this battle. It’s frustrating because the council have not adhered to standards both procedurally and in maintaining the road signs, but what can we do.

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Re: PCN Newham Council for loading bay (unmarked with inadequate signage)
« Reply #21 on: »
It seems as though, even though the council are in the wrong here, to just pay the £64, which would give me a peace of mind.
Stupid.
Why would you do that? Nothig is difficult in your case.

Payment potentially cause many others to suffer as Newham thinknthey can get away with it.

Re: PCN Newham Council for loading bay (unmarked with inadequate signage)
« Reply #22 on: »
I’m struggling to understand what exactly you’re doing here besides writing annoying comments. Unlike Enceladus  and the others who have actually laid out step by step processes as well as the alternative if I don’t want to go through the lengthy process. Since you’re not providing anything beneficial, I’d rather you not comment. It’s not as if I’ll be asking you to review my appeal or witness statement with your  lazy comments and multiple spelling errors. 
« Last Edit: January 21, 2025, 10:29:25 pm by RoutineSystem4728 »

Re: PCN Newham Council for loading bay (unmarked with inadequate signage)
« Reply #23 on: »
This is very helpful. Thank you very much. I’m now considering this process.

Re: PCN Newham Council for loading bay (unmarked with inadequate signage)
« Reply #24 on: »
I’m struggling to understand what exactly you’re doing here besides writing annoying comments. Unlike Enceladus  and the others who have actually laid out step by step processes as well as the alternative if I don’t want to go through the lengthy process. Since you’re not providing anything beneficial, I’d rather you not comment. It’s not as if I’ll be asking you to review my appeal or witness statement with your  lazy comments and multiple spelling errors.
DON't DARE tell me when I can or can't post.

As I explained to you before, I and others may be watching and happy that the correct info has been given to you.
In my case I haven't found the need to post in detail and prefer not to as I'm a bit unwell at the moment.

But your ridiculous statement that you intend to pay just infuriarated me. Don't make assumptions and, as I said before, ask.

I agree with Enceladusin in advising you to wait for the OfR. Your alternative of making an appeal to tribunal unilaterally is unlikely to succeed as your terminology has been shown not to be up to scratch.

We actually have a sticky describing the simple procees you now need to be familiar with >
https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/charge-certificate-cases-under-the-traffic-management-act-2004-no-original-notic/
« Last Edit: January 22, 2025, 01:21:08 am by Neil B »

Re: PCN Newham Council for loading bay (unmarked with inadequate signage)
« Reply #25 on: »
I didn’t say you can’t comment, just said I’d rather you not seeing as though you were being obnoxious, and rightly so since now you’ve decided to contribute by attaching the step-by-step process (which mind you, has already been posted by a helpful member, John B a few days ago).

I’m not sure why it’s infuriated you when I’ve told you the reasoning for paying the PCN would give me a peace of mind. I highlighted that this was due to not wanting bailiffs turning up on my doorstep, but rather, you dismissed it as ‘stupid’. Why on earth would I ask for your assistance after that?

Anyways, thank you for providing your input on the best way to move forward. That I appreciate.  I’ll make up my mind towards the end of the week and see if I want to pay the PCN or if I want to go forward with the appeal.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2025, 01:12:53 pm by RoutineSystem4728 »

Re: PCN Newham Council for loading bay (unmarked with inadequate signage)
« Reply #26 on: »
Interesting issue here IMO.

As I understand it:
Date of issue of PCN: 16 June 2024.
Applicable legislation: TMA.
Date of issue of NTO: 13 Dec. 2024.
Deemed date of service: 17 Dec.
[3) Service of such a notice or charge certificate contained in a letter sent by first class post which has been properly addressed, pre-paid and posted is to be taken to have been effected on the second working day after the day of posting.]

Elapsed period: 6 months and 1 day.

From the General Regs:
2) A notice to owner may not be served after the expiry of the period of 6 months beginning with the relevant date.

4) For the purposes of this regulation, the relevant date—

d)in any other case, is the date on which the relevant penalty charge notice was served under regulation 9.


IMO, prima facie the NTO is invalid because it's been served out of time: the council's action in issuing the NTO on 13 Dec. was ultra vires. However, de facto it was served on 14th Dec. i.e. within the 6-month period.

Any views?

Re: PCN Newham Council for loading bay (unmarked with inadequate signage)
« Reply #27 on: »
NA.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2025, 11:39:10 pm by RoutineSystem4728 »

Re: PCN Newham Council for loading bay (unmarked with inadequate signage)
« Reply #28 on: »
Put the handbags away.
I am not qualified to give legal advice in the UK. While I will do my best to help you, you should not rely on my advice as if it was given by a lawyer qualified in the UK.
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Re: PCN Newham Council for loading bay (unmarked with inadequate signage)
« Reply #29 on: »
.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2025, 11:43:45 pm by RoutineSystem4728 »