Author Topic: PCN-London Borough Lewisham-52M-Leahurst Road Westbound  (Read 1151 times)

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1979SC

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PCN-London Borough Lewisham-52M-Leahurst Road Westbound
« on: July 16, 2024, 09:18:27 pm »
I received 2 PCNs in the same week as I travelled to work at Lewisham Hospital.
I usually travel on the major roads into work but that particular week the south circular was causing major tailbacks and all roads were blocked so I used the Leahurst Westbound approach. I wasn't aware of the westbound restriction and the signage did not alert my attention to the potential issue, given so many other roads in the surrounding area do alert you to any potential violations. I was issued with 2 PCN’s having travelled on the same stretch of road twice that week thank god I did get a fine after that otherwise it would have been a higher number of PCNs.
I appealed using some of the advice I found on this website, but both appeals have been rejected. I can either pay the £130, or challenge it further but face the prospect that it could go up to £260, a gamble I can ill afford. I really need some advice or where to go with this, am I wasting my time? I have revisited the signage and its incredibly poor and not clear. It also baffles me why one side allows cars and the other side does not given my return journey involves me travelling via the eastbound stretch.
I would very much appreciate some advice on what my options are with an appeal given its really stressing me out. Thank you!
original PCN one of them but its effectively the same times 2
rejection letter 1  
rejection letter 2

if any of the documents postings are out of sync please let me know, ive never used the platform below so i'm having issues

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Incandescent

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Re: PCN-London Borough Lewisham-52M-Leahurst Road Westbound
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2024, 10:17:50 pm »
I think we've seen this location before, but GSV is too out-of-date to show the current restriction, which used to be a 6' width restriction.
So can you obtain and post their video of the alleged contravention, and also, if possible, take and post some photos of the location to show signs, including any advanced signs.

Your's is a typical case of two or more PCNs which at the full penalty at risk at London Tribunals means most people cannot take the risk of losing as the amount is too great. Howevr, one important question is, when did the 2nd PCN turn up ? You could argue if this is dated after the 1st, but only received after the date you received the first, that the penalty is disproportionate as you only became aware of the offence when the 1st PCN arrived.

Addendum
The last GSV view is 2022. This shows westbound is barred to HGVs only, so I assume these signs are now the usual "FLying Motorbike" signs which bar all motor traffic.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/GkxjjJ6kF5sDFtBa8
« Last Edit: July 16, 2024, 10:29:56 pm by Incandescent »

1979SC

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Re: PCN-London Borough Lewisham-52M-Leahurst Road Westbound
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2024, 08:07:34 am »
Thank you for your fast reply very much appreciated.

I attach the street shots which i did supply with my challenge, hopefully they make sense but please say if not.



I will try and get the footage attached from the PCN

Regarding the dates I received the first PCN on a Tuesday and the second was on a Thursday in the same week, I received the first notice the week after and immediately knew that a second was on its way once i received the first.

1979SC

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Re: PCN-London Borough Lewisham-52M-Leahurst Road Westbound
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2024, 08:27:05 am »
Still from the PCN video, I'm not sure how to upload the actual video. The stills are exactly the same for both days.

Logged in and I have until the 28th July to pay the reduced amount should I wish, assume the second one is two days after.

Never had to do this so have a high element of nervousness so need sound advice hence reaching out on here.

Thank you




Incandescent

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Re: PCN-London Borough Lewisham-52M-Leahurst Road Westbound
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2024, 09:29:11 am »
The photos jogged my memory ! As I recall, there is an advance notice sign but mounted in a stupid position, and if you miss it, the actual restriction sign is placed after the narrow lane, not in advance of it, thus one is lead on into the restriction with no means of escape. For me, this is a very badly placed and designed restriction, but can an adjudicator be convinced ?

1979SC

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Re: PCN-London Borough Lewisham-52M-Leahurst Road Westbound
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2024, 09:37:19 am »
That is exactly the situation, the blue warning is on the other side of the road and then you pass the point of no return and there is nothing you can do. However my situation is probably made worse by the fact i did the same thing in two days which probably counts against me. Not sure what to do with this whether to maybe pay one at £65 and challenge the second.

Incandescent

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Re: PCN-London Borough Lewisham-52M-Leahurst Road Westbound
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2024, 11:37:06 am »
I would be strongly tempted to challenge the 2nd PCN. What to do about the 1st is your decision because the next stage is London Tribunals with the £130 in play.
Reps for your 2nd PCN need to refer to PCN 1 and that you had no idea of the contravention until PCN 1 arrived, so you regard the second penalty to be a disproportionate penalty, and ask that PCN2 be cancelled. Say that you have now revised your route to the hospital.

Others on hear may also make suggestions but don't miss any deadlines for submitting reps or paying.

Hippocrates

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Re: PCN-London Borough Lewisham-52M-Leahurst Road Westbound
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2024, 11:45:36 am »
The issue of the second one seems disproportionate. Two members have been successful and one member not.

https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/lewisham-52-m-failing-to-comply-with-a-prohibition-on-certain-vehicles-leahurst-/msg29540/#msg29540

It all depends on which adjudicator and the quality of one's appeal.  See this:

https://imgur.com/a/owRyI9

The NOR contains one flaw in  that it does not mention the adjudicator can extend the period of time to lodge the appeal.

*******

And this threat which is unlawful from their website just now:

Penalty Charge Notice details

Ticket ReferenceZY09452368

Your PCN is at full rate stage.
PCN process information

Vehicle Registration Number LC20YKE

Colour BLACK

Make BMW

Contravention52m - Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle (motor vehicles)

Location Leahurst Road - Westbound

First seen at Tue, 11 Jun 2024 9:51

Issued at Tue, 11 Jun 2024 9:51

Served by Post

The amount outstanding on the Penalty Charge Notice will increase to £195.00 on Sun, 28 Jul 2024.

Please pay £65.00 now.

You have already made representations for this PCN and we replied on Thu, 4 Jul 2024. You cannot make representations twice

******

I say appeal them both as they will probably mess up just like the information as above.

*******


Penalty Charge Notice details

Ticket Reference ZY09462485

Your PCN is at discount stage.
 
PCN process information

Vehicle Registration NumberLC20YKE

Colour BLACK

Make BMW

Contravention52m - Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle (motor vehicles)

Location Leahurst Road - Westbound

First seen at Thu, 13 Jun 2024 9:31

Issued at Thu, 13 Jun 2024 9:31

Served by Post

The amount outstanding on the Penalty Charge Notice will increase to £130.00 on Mon, 22 Jul 2024. Please pay £65.00 now.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2024, 12:23:13 pm by Hippocrates »
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ

1979SC

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Re: PCN-London Borough Lewisham-52M-Leahurst Road Westbound
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2024, 01:30:11 pm »
Thank you, i will read the file and think about what to do, I challenged both but both got rejected so I may pay one but go to the london tribunal for the second and say it was disproportionate and I paid the first and have now changed my route once i realised the issue.

Hippocrates

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Re: PCN-London Borough Lewisham-52M-Leahurst Road Westbound
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2024, 01:33:57 pm »
Please show what you wrote. In the three cases I was involved with, they messed up. Won two. Thinking about Judicial Review re the one lost!
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ

1979SC

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Re: PCN-London Borough Lewisham-52M-Leahurst Road Westbound
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2024, 01:38:15 pm »
I am writing to challenge the PCN ZY09452368
I was travelling on the westbound approach of Leahurst Road on my way to work at Lewisham Hospital. Ordinarily this is not a route that I would ever take when travelling to work at the hospital, but on the day I made my journey the south circular had severe tail backs due to road works, and all roads were blocked and traffic was at a standstill.
When I received the PCN I didn’t understand why I had received one and at which point in my journey, so I had to revisit the site to take pictures, which I have attached.
As I approached the area in question I was unaware of there being any restrictions on the westbound side of the road. The road layout is as such that there is only one blue sign present 50 yards from the junction, on the far right hand side of the road on the far edge of the pavement, adjacent to parking bays. It is not clear that drivers on the west bound approach are impacted, furthermore I’m not sure why this sign is not on the left hand side of the road so impacted drivers are immediately aware. Given the sign is on the opposite side of the road, drivers have no opportunity to firstly understand that there is a restriction and secondly and rather dangerously have the chance to amend their route so they do not incur a fine.
The only other warning presents itself on the actual traffic island when it is too late to reverse or amend your route hence unwittingly entering the prohibited route. 
I have worked at Lewisham Hospital for over 10 years, I have a permit with Lewisham council which can be referenced as proof that I do work for Lewisham Trust XXXX. I have never received a PCN and the fact that I received two in two days on this exact same road (PCN ZY ZY09462485) demonstrates that the current signage is woefully inadequate and misleading, it is not clear from the outset what the restriction is.
I would like my challenge to be reviewed because this was issued unfairly and unjustly.


Hope i haven't provided and inadequate response but this it what I sent for the challenge

Hippocrates

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Re: PCN-London Borough Lewisham-52M-Leahurst Road Westbound
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2024, 01:42:40 pm »
That's fine. Up to you. I would not pay either, especially the second one.
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ

1979SC

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Re: PCN-London Borough Lewisham-52M-Leahurst Road Westbound
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2024, 01:50:47 pm »
so you think try and challenge both at the london tribunal? I won't hold you to it, i just feel like its really unclear and i should give it a go. using the other case file to assist in my argument

Incandescent

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Re: PCN-London Borough Lewisham-52M-Leahurst Road Westbound
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2024, 02:14:01 pm »
Please show what you wrote. In the three cases I was involved with, they messed up. Won two. Thinking about Judicial Review re the one lost!
What are the case numbers at London Tribunals ? Or did the authority give way before that

1979SC

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Re: PCN-London Borough Lewisham-52M-Leahurst Road Westbound
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2024, 02:22:38 pm »
can you share what you wrote when you went to the london tribunal? or is there a case number that allows documents to be reviewed online?
I'm going to challenge both PCNs and go to the london tribunal