Author Topic: Chichester Council Car Park PCN  (Read 301 times)

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Chichester Council Car Park PCN
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Hi there, I've been pointed this way by Reddit so I'm hoping you guys can help! Hopefully the attachments have worked ok but to save me writing a ton, but I've included the original email I sent to the council appealing and their reply this morning which should explain everything. If I pursue it, am I likely to end up with someone who has a bit of common sense and says 'clearly this is a genuine mistake and they weren't trying to avoid paying'? I'm really surprised they didn't do that the first time, but they've largely ignored everything I said in my email, aside to acknowledge each bit in their reply by repeating it and not then explaining why each bit isn't a valid defence. Just tells me why you should buy a ticket like I don't buy one every day already


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Re: Chichester Council Car Park PCN
« Reply #1 on: »
It's the usual Fob-Off letter that virtually all councils send back in response to informal reps. They do this because they  know that most people then just cough-up to get the discount.

So are you prepared to take them to adjudication ? You can cite their instructions on the phone that led you to act as you did.

Re: Chichester Council Car Park PCN
« Reply #2 on: »
Unfortunately the instructions over the phone aren't what's in question because he just said 'go get another ticket and refund later' - they are within their rights obviously to give a PCN to a car without a ticket, regardless of any note. But given the lack of instruction on site aside 'call us' (they hadn't opened yet), the evidence I provided showing the time of the original payment attempt and then the explanation of what I did to try and resolve asap, I feel like it's a no brainer.

I've not had a PCN before so I don't really know the process - I guess it depends how well it'd go for me challenging it and if someone reasonable looks at it or if it's now just automated stuff from here. If it's gonna end up costing me more than the £25 I could pay now then I'll just have to pay. They'll just have cost themselves hundreds of pounds a year because I won't be using their car parks again (at a decent time cost to me but at least I'll get a bit more exercise having to walk)

Re: Chichester Council Car Park PCN
« Reply #3 on: »
So you would prefer to join the Mugged Club and pay £25, rather than take them all the way, when your narrative says that you made payment for the ticket, (and can prove it),  but did not get a ticket to put in the car.

Frankly, I am astonished ! I cannot see how an adjudicator could refuse an appeal from you, but don't take my word, see what the others say.

Re: Chichester Council Car Park PCN
« Reply #4 on: »
No absolutely not - I was just hesitant because of the other commenters question of 'are you prepared to take them to an adjudicator', not knowing what that entailed. But having had the evening to look at the process, the worse that happens is that I have to pay the full value which I cannot see any reasonable human being looking at it and deciding that I deserve a fine. I would gladly fight this to my last breath, I just wasn't sure if there's any scenario where it costs you loads of money going to court or something if you really dig your heels in, but it doesn't sound like that's the case!

Re: Chichester Council Car Park PCN
« Reply #5 on: »
I cannot see any reasonable human being looking at it and deciding that I deserve a fine

Adjudicators decide on facts using the legal test of balance of probabilities.

OP, if you've never had a PCN before then how to present your evidence would not be second nature to you.

Your objective evidence, some circumstantial, appears to be:

Assuming you pay by card regularly then you have a time series of payments. Same time every day.

A record of a call to the council on the day in question.

Personal recollections of a timed conversation with a council officer on the day, but whether before the PCN was issued or not I'm not clear.

If so, IMO then if you are the registered keeper(are you?) then you could wait for a NTO and present your account in a different manner.

I suggest:
I work at **** and park at this car park on a daily/regular basis and have done for ****;
I purchase all-day/X-hour tickets in the same time window every day;
Hitherto I have not had problems with the ticket machine(s) - is it one or more?
I have not had a PCN in the past Y years/ever at this car park;

and then, and only then do you recount the events of the day IMO.

What evidence, historical or otherwise, could you present?

Re: Chichester Council Car Park PCN
« Reply #6 on: »
Thanks for your reply! In terms of the process, the letter said that any further informal challenges won't be acknowledged so the next step is then for the Notice to Owner, so I need to wait for that I believe.

I'll have payments every weekday from 2018-2020, after that was Covid and when we were allowed back to the office, then it became hybrid working so I would do mostly two days a week, unless I got one of the limited spaces at the office. So it would look patchy after that on the basis that I'd be down to two days a week, and I can occasionally park at the office so even when I am in, there's not necessarily a payment for the car park. As it happens, the majority of the time I'm in, I will be in that car park and obviously have paid, but I think on that basis it wouldn't help much to show payments a couple of times a week as it could look to them that I only pay every so often (and also be the luckiest person on earth that until now I've avoided a ticket...!). They also won't be able to find anything on my reg at all, be it that car park or anywhere else. And I've lived in the area my whole life so there's a comprehensive history there!

I've got a screenshot of the attempted (as it turned out) payment on Apple pay at 8:37 and a screenshot from our work phone system of the calls made (time and length). I tried at 8:52 just in case they were open early (which coincidentally is the time they started observing me without a ticket), and then again spoke to the guy at 9:01 at which point I then went back to the car to buy a new ticket. And have the email back to him saying 'I got a ticket, what do I do?' which shows at least that I was very promptly back to my car, so should show I acted as quickly as was possible based on their timelines. And there's absolutely no part of the timeline they can point to where I acted in a way that would indicate I was trying to get away without paying - I had to wait until their office opened and then paid in full as soon as I could after that. I don't think there's anything I wish I did have in terms of actual evidence with times etc so I feel confident on that front.

What an adjudicator should see is that I have the screenshot with the time my phone/bank believed the payment was made (8:37), the times I then tried to call after and how quickly I was back at my car buying the full ticket after that once they'd confirmed what I should do. The signal is notoriously poor in Chichester which I mentioned in my email as the reason for there seeming to be two choices - go to the office and wait until 9 to use our phone system, or hang around and be an undetermined amount of time late for work while I waited for a parking attendant who may or may not show up during the day. So on that basis, I'm already surprised the first challenge failed given how clear it seems to me that I did everything I could to resolve asap, and they're not out of pocket. I still paid for the full day there and then, so the fine should then look like a ridiculous overreaction to uphold it. Their reply didn't really indicate they've read my email to be honest anyway. I did read that adjudicators also take into account what's a fair application of a fine and this definitely isn't.

Re: Chichester Council Car Park PCN
« Reply #7 on: »
Would you pl post the PCN, both sides and only redact personal info.

A photo of the Ts and Cs board would also be useful.

At present I don't know the alleged contravention i.e. non payment of parking charge or non display of a P&D ticket.

If the latter then the council's in no better position than you IMO i.e. they cannot prove that you did not display because you did not pay, all they could do at best is to produce photos showing you did not display. But this isn't going to persuade most adjudicators in the face of your history and record that payment was made. You cannot display what isn't provided by the machine.

But let's get the basics of the PCN and signage in play first pl.

Re: Chichester Council Car Park PCN
« Reply #8 on: »
No need to redact anything on a windscreen PCN.