Author Topic: PCN Hammersmith and Fulham contravention 52M- RMV Rivercourt Rd  (Read 1890 times)

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Re: PCN Hammersmith and Fulham contravention 52M- RMV Rivercourt Rd
« Reply #15 on: »
I'm going to suggest you be not afraid to use formatting to increase clarity for the Adjudicator and have modified yr draft above (Reply #13) to show the kind of thing I mean.  I've also made adjustments in blue to show you are appealing to the Ajudicator and not the Council.
Attach the appeal as a pdf and you should also attach the relevant photographs (number them and refer to them by number in the appeal).

Post your final draft here before submitting.

I'd wait and see if any others, esp. @Bustagate or @Hippocrates have any further comment, but I'd be inclined to submit and only if H&F resist yr appeal and force a hearing spend time refining the appeal text.

When registering the appeal make sure you opt for a personal (video or telephone) hearing.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2025, 05:43:34 pm by John U.K. »

Re: PCN Hammersmith and Fulham contravention 52M- RMV Rivercourt Rd
« Reply #16 on: »
Thank you John, here's the appeal formatted and with added lines as you suggested to improve clarity. I've prepared a few photos including one from @Bustagate and his drawings. the dot matrix display that you posted ( even though they are two now) and photo of the complex signage. I was just wandering if they would allow as well videos, the one from the Council and the one from my Dashcam that i posted recently where clearly the sun hits the sign. 

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Re: PCN Hammersmith and Fulham contravention 52M- RMV Rivercourt Rd
« Reply #17 on: »
There's a presumption in proceedings with a public body that it is acting properly and its statements can be believed. It's called the presumption of regularity. I consider that H&F aren't entitled to it. My word doesn't count but evidence of the Council's irregular actions (as I set out below) may persuade the adjudicator to puncture the presumption.

It's your call as to what you put in your appeal. Here's what I would say:

There seems some confusion as to what exactly the alleged contravention is. The contravention code, 52M, applies to a failure to comply with the terms of a TMO, in this case TMO 2037 dated 18th September 2024. The rejection of my representations refers to my passing the "flying motorcycle" sign as though that is the contravention. In normal circumstances the presumption of regularity would make the two propositions identical.

I consider that in this case the Council aren't entitled to the presumption of regularity for the following reasons:

1. Great West Road is a TfL road and TfL's ownership extends at least as far as the combined cycleway/footway to the north of the carriageway.

2. The Council's plan of the signage, https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/rivercourt_road_experimental_tmo/response/3055381/attach/3/Rivercourt%20Road%20A4%20Junction%20Layout%20Plan.pdf, confirms this and also shows that TfL's land on the west side of the exit slip road runs to where the "RED ROUTE // CLEARWAY // End" sign is.

3. Under section 121B of Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984, the Council is obliged to give notice to TfL before doing anything to one of the Council's highways which might affect TfL's road, let alone changing road markings on TfL's land. The Council also needs to comply with any instructions from TfL.

4. The Council has erased TfL's edge-of-carriageway markings on Great West Road and painted new white hatching with a solid boundary on either side of the exit slip road, across TfL's cycleway/footway. Those road markings now prohibit all vehicles, including pedal cycles, from crossing them.

5. The answer to a question to the Mayor of London about Rivercourt Road, https://www.london.gov.uk/who-we-are/what-london-assembly-does/questions-mayor/find-an-answer/a4-and-rivercourt-road-low-traffic-neighbourhood, refers to changes to be made to the signage "to remedy the situation". That indicates that TfL wasn't consulted before the Council made its changes.

6. The Council's answer https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/rivercourt_road_experimental_tmo/response/3055381/attach/4/Response%20all%20information%20to%20be%20supplied.pdf  to FoI request 16918890 sets out the Council's view as to where the boundary lies between Great West Road and Rivercourt Road and where "a point 8.30 meters south of the southern building wall of No. 17 Rivercourt Road" lies. The boundary is the start of the one-way south-to-north restriction while the point defines its end. By my reckoning, the line across Rivercourt Road from the point, i.e. the end of the south-to-north restriction, lies south of the start, so the defined restriction doesn't exist and the TMO is unenforceable.

7. Paragraph 4 of the TMO stops half way through. If it means anything, it is that the entire section of Rivercourt Road between Great West Road and King Street is prohibited to all motor vehicles northbound. Other motor vehicles can enter it southbound from King Street but are prohibited from turning round and returning to King Street. Nor can they exit to Great West Road. They are trapped and will pile up until the road is blocked.  This adds to the TMO's unenforceability.

Given this evidence, I consider that the Council needs to explain just what the TMO means, where it applies, how it relates to the signage which has been placed and demonstrate that there was a contravention.

P.S. This attack on the presumption of regularity is independent of the details of your case and may be of use to others wishing to challenge PCNs on Rivercourt Road
« Last Edit: July 03, 2025, 08:54:04 pm by Bustagate »
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Re: PCN Hammersmith and Fulham contravention 52M- RMV Rivercourt Rd
« Reply #18 on: »
Thank you John, here's the appeal formatted and with added lines as you suggested to improve clarity. I've prepared a few photos including one from @Bustagate and his drawings. the dot matrix display that you posted ( even though they are two now) and photo of the complex signage. I was just wandering if they would allow as well videos, the one from the Council and the one from my Dashcam that i posted recently where clearly the sun hits the sign.

The Council video will (IF H&F persist in pursuing this after you've registered the appeal) be included in their Evidence Pack, so no need to worry about that.

I'm not sure about how to attach a video file or link - you could ring the Tribunal and ask for guidance, or one of our experts here would know.


Re: PCN Hammersmith and Fulham contravention 52M- RMV Rivercourt Rd
« Reply #19 on: »
What i found is that:
When appealing a Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) to the London Tribunals, you cannot directly upload a video, but you can provide a link to a video as part of your evidence. Here's how it works:

🔹 What You Can Do:
Upload documents and images (JPEG, PNG, PDF, etc.) directly to your online appeal.

Include a URL link to a video hosted on a third-party platform (e.g. YouTube, Vimeo, Dropbox, Google Drive) in your written submission or evidence document.

✅ Best Practices for Video Evidence:
Upload the video to a reliable, publicly accessible service (Google Drive, Dropbox, YouTube [unlisted], etc.).

Ensure access permissions are set so the adjudicator can view it without logging in.

Clearly reference the link in your appeal statement or an accompanying document (e.g., "Please see this video showing the signage at the location: [link]").

Include a brief description of what the video shows and how it supports your appeal.
With this in mind, I'm going to appeal and am even considering including screenshots of the matrix signs obscured by sunlight as additional evidence.

Re: PCN Hammersmith and Fulham contravention 52M- RMV Rivercourt Rd
« Reply #20 on: »
I passed by Rivercourt Rd today and noticed 3 new signs

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Re: PCN Hammersmith and Fulham contravention 52M- RMV Rivercourt Rd
« Reply #21 on: »
It appears somebody has woken up from their slumbers, and decided the signs on the A40 are inadequate, I see only the one sign related to Rivercourt Road, but just look at it ! At ground level and small and hard to read at 40 mph, and subject to obscuration by traffic in front. Useless, but does show at least recognition of their total failure with this restriction. The sign needs to be a lot larger and properly mounted like other signs.

Where are the two other signs, and what do they relate to.

Re: PCN Hammersmith and Fulham contravention 52M- RMV Rivercourt Rd
« Reply #22 on: »
I passed by Rivercourt Rd today and noticed 3 new signs

There has been some discussion on these new sign towards the end of this thread in the Flame Pit:
https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/rivercourt-road-hammersmith-main-nmv-sign/

Tod, any update on your own case?
The erection of these new signs, however inadequate they may be, would seem to indicate an admission by H&F that on on the day of yr alleged contravention ther signage was then itself inadequate.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2025, 05:42:28 pm by andy_foster »

Re: PCN Hammersmith and Fulham contravention 52M- RMV Rivercourt Rd
« Reply #23 on: »
Hi John, i've appealed to LT and i've been given a date somewhere in October, not heard anything from H&F will see, i will get prepared. WIll contact for further advice if needed.
Thanks

Re: PCN Hammersmith and Fulham contravention 52M- RMV Rivercourt Rd
« Reply #24 on: »
Quote
i will get prepared

Little point in doing much prep until it is certain H&F are contesting.

Wait until you hear something from H&F or the Tribunal (or if nothing heard, about 3 weeks before hearing date) and wake this thread up again.

In the light of ongoing changes to signage and markings, make sure all your images of these are from the time of the alleged contravention.

The recent changes do, of course, strengthen yr own case that the signage back then was not fit for purpose.

Re: PCN Hammersmith and Fulham contravention 52M- RMV Rivercourt Rd
« Reply #25 on: »
Yes, exactly, i will get only if needed im not worried now. Thanks

Re: PCN Hammersmith and Fulham contravention 52M- RMV Rivercourt Rd
« Reply #26 on: »
Great News – We Won! 🙌

I just received an email from the tribunal – H&F have folded and will not be contesting my appeal! That means we've won!

I can’t thank this forum enough. Your support, advice, and encouragement made all the difference. Honestly, I wouldn't have gotten through this without you all. This victory isn't just mine – it's ours, a win for everyone standing up against a broken and corrupted system.

 respect to each of you
T

Re: PCN Hammersmith and Fulham contravention 52M- RMV Rivercourt Rd
« Reply #27 on: »
I’ve just received a letter from LBHF confirming their decision to cancel and close the PCN. They’re still not accepting my arguments, of course – laughable, isn’t it? 😂 They cancel it but won’t openly admit that what they’re doing is wrong.

Still, a win is a win, and I’m taking this as a big victory!

Re: PCN Hammersmith and Fulham contravention 52M- RMV Rivercourt Rd
« Reply #28 on: »
Well done.  ;D
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r
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