3. PCN for ULEZ - Family Visit - Romford/Essex.
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PCN for ULEZ - Family Visit - Romford/Essex.
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Hi All,

Family member came to visit from the North couple weeks back, arrived Friday evening and left Sunday evening (Saturday she didn't use her car).

She received a PCN on Wednesday for not having paid for the ULEZ charge for the Friday, she paid the (£90?) fine as it was essentially down to our ignorance. She received another PCN today for the Sunday she left, and was wondering if there is any grounds to appeal on the basis its her first offence and not from London? Appreciate it's bit of an ignorant stretch, but still worth an ask.

For context, I live within the M25 and all of our cars in the immediate family are all ULEZ compliant, so it was never something we paid any real attention to - now we're paying with our wallets!

Photos of PCN here:

ULEZ PCN





Thanks in advance.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2024, 02:10:18 pm by Charsiu »
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Re: PCN for ULEZ - Family Visit - Romford/Essex.
« Reply #1 on: »
See TfL's website and the Charging Order:

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone/penalty-charges-for-ulez

https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/default/files/consolidated-lez-scheme-order-londonwide-ulez-variations-29-august-2023.pdf   (reg 7(1)


Both state that a penalty is payable for each day(midnight-midnight) that the car is used on a ULEZ road.

Wait for others.
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Re: PCN for ULEZ - Family Visit - Romford/Essex.
« Reply #2 on: »
You've redacted the vehicle reg. Please reinstate it as per the instructions in the "READ THIS FIRST -" sticky post at the top of the forum. It's only necessary to redact your own name & address, where present. Please leave everything else visible, especially the PCN number, the vehicle reg, all times and dates and locations and all Enforcement Authority info.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2024, 04:24:42 pm by Enceladus »
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Re: PCN for ULEZ - Family Visit - Romford/Essex.
« Reply #3 on: »
Quote
was wondering if there is any grounds to appeal on the basis its her first offence and not from London? Appreciate it's bit of an ignorant stretch, but still worth an ask.
It's always worth an ask, but don't be surprised if they refuse it. I would submit reps on the basis of being a total stranger to London, living in <oop north somewhere>. Explain the circumstances first.  A ULEZ PCN was received and paid, (give number and date),  then a second PCN arrived.  State plainly, but without getting confrontational,  that you consider this to be an excessive punishment for not being aware of the ULEZ. also say that clearly you are now aware of the ULEZ conditions so the offence will not occur again.
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Re: PCN for ULEZ - Family Visit - Romford/Essex.
« Reply #4 on: »
Post a draft representation on here before sending it to TFL. As a general rule if TFL reoffers the discount and TFL is notified of a tribunal appeal while the discount is still available, TFL will accept the 50% discounted amount even if you lose at the tribunal, so arguably there's no risk in taking this all the way.

It is however imperative to make representations within 14 days, and file the tribunal appeal immediately upon receipt of the notice of rejection.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: PCN for ULEZ - Family Visit - Romford/Essex.
« Reply #5 on: »
Thanks all for the input, here is my draft representation:

I am writing to formally appeal against my second ULEZ charge levied against my vehicle on the 23rd June 2024. The Penalty Charge Notice reference number is XJ31678760.

On the evening of Friday 21st of June I drove down to visit my sister, niece and nephew for the first time in many years. Although I trust there was signage on the boundaries I must have overlooked these at the end of the 4 and a half hour drive, and due to my lack of knowledge of ULEZ and its boundaries, I did not realize that my vehicle was subject to any charge. 

Upon receiving the PCN for the Friday 21st June entry, I educated myself on the ULEZ regulations and then paid promptly as it was ultimately my fault (Payment Reference: E112465931 - unfortunately I have since disposed of the first PCN and do not have another reference number).

I understand the importance of adhering to environmental regulations, and I assure you that this was an unintentional oversight. As this is my first offence, I kindly request leniency and the cancellation of the second ULEZ charge on this occasion.

I sincerely hope that you will consider my appeal favorably and grant a waiver for this first-time, unintentional offence.

Thank you for your understanding and consideration. I look forward to your positive response.

Yours faithfully,

Best case would be the waiver of this fine, worst would be £180?
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Re: PCN for ULEZ - Family Visit - Romford/Essex.
« Reply #6 on: »
Reps look OK to me.  They will probably reject them and offer the discount, so you'd be in for £90, but you might get lucky.
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Re: PCN for ULEZ - Family Visit - Romford/Essex.
« Reply #7 on: »
You might wish to add where you drove from and where to in London. You didn't see any signs informing you of how or where or how much to pay.
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Bus driving since 1973. My advice, if you have a PSV licence, destroy it when you get to 65 or you'll be forever in demand.
Re: PCN for ULEZ - Family Visit - Romford/Essex.
« Reply #8 on: »
Quote from: roythebus on July 08, 2024, 07:31:53 pm
You might wish to add where you drove from and where to in London. You didn't see any signs informing you of how or where or how much to pay.

Google Street View is not up to date so I'm not sure how much signage/information they would have encountered on arrival, so didn't want to embellish too much/at all. Will add where they departed from (Liverpool).
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Re: PCN for ULEZ - Family Visit - Romford/Essex.
« Reply #9 on: »
I think that having 2 PCNs for the same set of facts is rather lost in the reps.

I drove into London;
I wasn't aware;
I didn't see;
On *** I received a PCN for *** (date) which I promptly paid;
On *** I then received this PCN effectively for driving out of contravention.
I now understand that the restriction applies per day, but would suggest that the levying of two penalties based upon the same error is a little disproportionate and would therefore ask the authority to exercise discretion on this occasion..
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Re: PCN for ULEZ - Family Visit - Romford/Essex.
« Reply #10 on: »
Quote from: H C Andersen on July 08, 2024, 08:53:35 pm
I think that having 2 PCNs for the same set of facts is rather lost in the reps.

I drove into London;
I wasn't aware;
I didn't see;
On *** I received a PCN for *** (date) which I promptly paid;
On *** I then received this PCN effectively for driving out of contravention.
I now understand that the restriction applies per day, but would suggest that the levying of two penalties based upon the same error is a little disproportionate and would therefore ask the authority to exercise discretion on this occasion..

Thanks for your input, I've reworded the appeal to make it a bit more apparently and cohorent.

Fingers crossed!
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Re: PCN for ULEZ - Family Visit - Romford/Essex.
« Reply #11 on: »
We received a response today through the post, date marked 23rd July which leaves us a less than a week to respond.

Seems like an almost generic response asking for vehicle registration details and makes no mention of our previous appeal and situation. There's no mention of how we can submit the paperwork electronically, which means we'd have to photocopy the paperwork and then physically send to a PO Box address.

Worth getting Royal Mail signed for delivery just to get the proof of delivery?


Response Letter
« Last Edit: July 31, 2024, 01:36:17 pm by Charsiu »
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Re: PCN for ULEZ - Family Visit - Romford/Essex.
« Reply #12 on: »

Thanks for your input, I've reworded the appeal to make it a bit more apparently and cohorent.

You didn't post this, but their response suggests that they haven't got the gist of you sent me 2 PCNs, I paid one and am making reps in respect of the 2nd for the reasons I've set out below......
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Re: PCN for ULEZ - Family Visit - Romford/Essex.
« Reply #13 on: »
Quote from: H C Andersen on July 31, 2024, 03:28:53 pm

Thanks for your input, I've reworded the appeal to make it a bit more apparently and cohorent.

You didn't post this, but their response suggests that they haven't got the gist of you sent me 2 PCNs, I paid one and am making reps in respect of the 2nd for the reasons I've set out below......

No, the appeal is more than clear that she was penalised twice, it literally starts off with: "I am writing to formally appeal against my second ULEZ charge levied against my vehicle on the 23rd June 2024"..."I received a second PCN for driving out of the ULEZ zone on my return back to Liverpool.", etc.

They just ignored those points.
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Re: PCN for ULEZ - Family Visit - Romford/Essex.
« Reply #14 on: »
TFL seem to think that there is a possibility that your car has had a change of registration. There's a known issue with the DVLA and the ULEZ databases in cases of a change of VRM, whereby a vehicle's emissions status and or data doesn't necessarily transfer to the new registration for several months. And sometimes never. Affects private plates, new VRMs from the DVLA due to cloning and vehicles imported from abroad. TFL manually updates their database in such cases.

Your car has a Northern Ireland VRM. Does any of those scenarios apply here? EG is it a private plate as opposed to the original VRM?

Did you say anything in your formal representation to suggest there has been change of VRM? Or that the car is actually ULEZ compliant? The copy of the reps you posted above on July 8th suggest you didn't?

Your car is a diesel. A diesel car doesn't actually have to be fully Euro-6 compliant to be exempt. It just has to meet the Euro-6 NOx standard and PM (Particulate Matter) standards.

Hence they want to check the V5c logbook. And the certificate of conformance if there is no emissions data.

Incidentally "Nitrates of Oxide". Long time since my school chemistry, is there even such a thing? I believe they meant to say Oxides of Nitrogen.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2024, 03:53:52 pm by Enceladus »
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