3. PCN for 3-point turn with no prohibited signage for U-turn.
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Author Topic: PCN for 3-point turn with no prohibited signage for U-turn.  (Read 2673 times)

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Re: PCN for 3-point turn with no prohibited signage for U-turn.
« Reply #15 on: »
Quote from: Incandescent on February 26, 2024, 01:33:11 am
OK, I hear what is said, but this PCN is just venal money-grubbing.
That's not a ground of appeal and not helpful either. One adjudicator has previously remarked that he could get CCTV from TFL of a vehicle stopping in a bay 30 seconds before the permitted time and he might think "what the heck" but he can't allow an appeal based on that, he needs me or Mr Mustard to give him a legal point to allow the appeal.

I think this is one for the strategy of last resort described here, but @antman40 would need to come up with some meaningful mitigation (unrelated to the contravention) that we could use to construct the representation.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: PCN for 3-point turn with no prohibited signage for U-turn.
« Reply #16 on: »
Sorry, but I do get a bit cross in the late evenings when I see things like this. Back when "I were a lad", such things like this would have never been prosecuted. Current use of CCTV has now got to the "Telescreens" stage.
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Re: PCN for 3-point turn with no prohibited signage for U-turn.
« Reply #17 on: »
@antman40 you need to decide if you want to risk the full penalty on a technical argument, if you want to give it a go I'm happy to draft a representation for you.


I would like to take you up on your offer for a draft representation
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Re: PCN for 3-point turn with no prohibited signage for U-turn.
« Reply #18 on: »
The link/click idea now doesn't work as per one recent decision?

I would just submit as many reasonable representations as possible and make them work for their £130.
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IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r
Re: PCN for 3-point turn with no prohibited signage for U-turn.
« Reply #19 on: »
Quote from: H C Andersen on February 26, 2024, 09:32:22 am
What the hell the end of Pedestrian Zone signs refer to, I've no idea. I cannot find else anything which corresponds, but it's not germane to the OP's case.
Verulam Avenue and Tudor Court are included in a School Street zone for St. Saviour's Church of England Primary School.

Details can be found here.
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Re: PCN for 3-point turn with no prohibited signage for U-turn.
« Reply #20 on: »
This should support de minimis

Case reference   2230555231
Appellant   Stephen Rawnsley
Authority   London Borough of Southwark
VRM   F5SMR
PCN Details
PCN   JK09380407
Contravention date   20 Oct 2023
Contravention time   06:51:00
Contravention location   Upper Ground Junction Hatfields
Penalty amount   GBP 130.00
Contravention   Failing to comply with a no entry sign
Referral date   
Decision Date   01 Mar 2024
Adjudicator   Andrew Harman
Appeal decision   Appeal allowed
Direction   
cancel the Penalty Charge Notice.

Reasons   
The contravention alleged in these proceedings is that this vehicle failed to comply with a no entry sign. The appellant's claim that he reversed through signage to give way to another vehicle is I find fully supported by the council's online footage of the incident. This does amount to a breach of the no entry prohibition but given the reason for it my noting that the vehicle having reversed past signage then almost immediately proceeded forward I am satisfied that it amounts to no more than a de minimus transgression thereof and I accordingly find that the contravention did not occur.
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Re: PCN for 3-point turn with no prohibited signage for U-turn.
« Reply #21 on: »
Totally different circumstances IMO, de minimis is not applicable as the whole vehicle from the rear bumper to the back of the front wheels was in contravention and I wouldn't refer.

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Re: PCN for 3-point turn with no prohibited signage for U-turn.
« Reply #22 on: »
Quote from: H C Andersen on March 03, 2024, 10:14:47 am
Totally different circumstances IMO, de minimis is not applicable as the whole vehicle from the rear bumper to the back of the front wheels was in contravention and I wouldn't refer.


if it does end up at tribunal there is really no harm by raising de minimis (is there?) and some adjudicators are more friendly than others so you never know. Doesn’t mean this is the only or central point

this is pretty close to de minimis and whether it is one side or the other of the de minimis threshold should be left to adjudicators (provided the OP wants to take to tribunal anyhow)
« Last Edit: March 03, 2024, 10:34:25 am by taffer87 »
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Re: PCN for 3-point turn with no prohibited signage for U-turn.
« Reply #23 on: »
The OP isn't at tribunal, they've yet to decide whether to pay the discount or submit reps. If submitting reps is risk free, and I don't know whether it would be, then submit reps. But if there's doubt as to whether the discount would be re-offered with unsuccessful reps then unless there are other more substantive grounds then IMO the OP should consider the discount.
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Re: PCN for 3-point turn with no prohibited signage for U-turn.
« Reply #24 on: »
A representation has been submitted based on De Minimis. Let's see what the council's response will be.
Thank you for all your comments.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2024, 05:36:27 pm by antman40 »
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Re: PCN for 3-point turn with no prohibited signage for U-turn.
« Reply #25 on: »
I thought some technical issues were going to be included?
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IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r
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Re: PCN for 3-point turn with no prohibited signage for U-turn.
« Reply #26 on: »
Quote from: Hippocrates on March 01, 2024, 02:25:12 pm
The link/click idea now doesn't work as per one recent decision?
That's just one adjudicator, most do accept it.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: PCN for 3-point turn with no prohibited signage for U-turn.
« Reply #27 on: »
Hello.

I've had a response from Waltham Forest Council. They have cancelled the PCN the appeal based on De Minimis has been accepted. I guess there wasn't enough evidence in the video footage to enforce the PCN as the signs cannot be seen and the vehicle had only used the space to perform a 3-point turn which is clearly evident and not illegal in any way nor did the vehicle drive head-on or forwards through the signs.

Thank you all for your assistance and advice. Much appreciated.

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Re: PCN for 3-point turn with no prohibited signage for U-turn.
« Reply #28 on: »
Wonders never cease! Well done.
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Re: PCN for 3-point turn with no prohibited signage for U-turn.
« Reply #29 on: »
« Last Edit: April 07, 2024, 02:27:09 pm by Hippocrates »
Logged
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r
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