3. PCN for parking with one or more wheels over a footpath, Help needed, Help Needed
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Re: PCN for parking with one or more wheels over a footpath, Help needed, Help Needed
« Reply #15 on: »
Is it worth looking at the TRO to see if that has been amended to include the short bit of DYL?
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Bus driving since 1973. My advice, if you have a PSV licence, destroy it when you get to 65 or you'll be forever in demand.
Re: PCN for parking with one or more wheels over a footpath, Help needed, Help Needed
« Reply #16 on: »
Mea Culpa !
Looking at my own post, it's a load of complete boll+ks, because the PCN is not for the double-yellow lines, but for parking off-carriageway. However, these tend to be harder to refute than PCNs for DYLs !  Looking at the sign, there is below the pay-to-park arrangements, a sign allowing off-carriageway parking in marked bays only.  I still hold to my view that there is no clear bay where the OP parked, with its adjacent double-yellow lines, however.........

I thought a look on GSV might turn up something and it did.
Here is GSV March 2017.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/LygfkRNdBqGELtfy5
Note that there is nothing about off-carriageway parking, so the parking bays are part of the carriageway.
But in May 2018, by some council sleight-of-hand, the bays are apparently now off-carriagway, yet the street remains unchanged.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/ujwucw7Z9VbE2tKR8
How can the parking bay now be off-carriageway, yet a year before it was carriageway ?

So maybe worth a punt at London Tribunals !
« Last Edit: October 21, 2023, 05:48:20 pm by cp8759 »
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Re: PCN for parking with one or more wheels over a footpath, Help needed, Help Needed
« Reply #17 on: »
Quote from: Incandescent on October 20, 2023, 10:22:24 pm
For me this is a difficult one. It is obvious that there once was a bay there, but the council decided to put in a short length of double-yellow lines and to paint out the bay markings with black over-paint which has partly worn off.
This is the key point, the bay has partially reappeared so it's ambiguous. In Trudie Tinsley v London Borough of Waltham Forest (2210064678, 13 March 2021) adjudicator Belinda Pearce said:

The contemporaneous photographic capture was examined to evaluate the allegation in conjunction with the Appellant's representations.

The said vehicle is positioned within identifiable bay markings; one edge of the broken white bay demarcation being indented on the pavement clearly inducing motorists to position vehicles within such delineations and thereby parking with 2 wheels off the carriageway.

I find that the that the presence of the bay lines in the vicinity encourage such manner of parking and invite motorists to park off carriageway.

It is of concern that the Enforcement Authority state that the bay markings have 'been partially removed.'

Partial removal is unacceptable if the Enforcement Authority's intent is to remove the ability of motorists to so park.

Evidentially I do not find that the contravention occurred, accordingly I allow this Appeal.

I can't guarantee the outcome, but if you want to carry on I'm happy to represent you at the tribunal.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: PCN for parking with one or more wheels over a footpath, Help needed, Help Needed
« Reply #18 on: »
Thank you all for your replies. I would greatly appreciate that cp8759.

Two questions:
1) How would we proceed if you were to represent me at tribunal?

2) If they were to reject the appeal, what charges would I be looking at?

Many thanks,
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Re: PCN for parking with one or more wheels over a footpath, Help needed, Help Needed
« Reply #19 on: »
Quote from: johnsmith22 on October 21, 2023, 09:09:52 pm
Thank you all for your replies. I would greatly appreciate that cp8759.

Two questions:
1) How would we proceed if you were to represent me at tribunal?

2) If they were to reject the appeal, what charges would I be looking at?

Many thanks,
The full PCN penalty, but no more.
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Re: PCN for parking with one or more wheels over a footpath, Help needed, Help Needed
« Reply #20 on: »
Quote from: johnsmith22 on October 21, 2023, 09:09:52 pm
Thank you all for your replies. I would greatly appreciate that cp8759.

Two questions:
1) How would we proceed if you were to represent me at tribunal?
I'll drop you a PM.

Quote from: johnsmith22 on October 21, 2023, 09:09:52 pm
2) If they were to reject the appeal, what charges would I be looking at?
Just the penalty charge, there are no other costs.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: PCN for parking with one or more wheels over a footpath, Help needed, Help Needed
« Reply #21 on: »
OP, have you posted a GSV of exactly where you were?

The council's response is b******s.

Can you park on the pavement where there are DYL. Of course you can. Any of the exemptions which applies on the carriageway to waiting on DYL applies on the footway. Parking on the footway and DYL are chalk and cheese.

So, under what circumstances are you permitted to park on the footway?

General considerations:
Where parking places are marked and properly signed*;
Where footway parking signs are displayed.

Specific:

See 15(3)

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/1974/24/section/15

*- the parking place signs for parking on the footway are NOT the same as for parking on the carriageway: see items 3&4 in Part 4 (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/4/made) and compare with item 2.

3&4 means that parking on the footway is permitted ONLY within the markings of the parking place and not outside because if the parking places sit within a wider permitted footway parking area then item 2 would suffice.

So, if a sign to item 2 is displayed on the footway what does it mean?

The council have signed it incorrectly or they have signed correctly and it sits within a wider permitted footway parking area.

But this has nothing in principle to do with DYL.

To elaborate, look at items 14&15 in Part 2 here: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/7/made

Note the permitted variant: In marked bays.

Contrast this with the plate displayed on CPZ signs and similar: In signed bays.

Within a permitted footway parking area bays may be marked. These are NOT parking places, they are bays marked to indicate where footway parking is permitted. It is not permitted outside.

So, IMO if you were parked within markings only and adjacent bays had parking place markings with signs but not to the prescribed format of sign then IMO this could only mean that although you might not have seen them, you were within a a permitted footway parking area.

Sorry if it sounds confusing!
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Re: PCN for parking with one or more wheels over a footpath, Help needed, Help Needed
« Reply #22 on: »
DNC'ed.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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  3. PCN for parking with one or more wheels over a footpath, Help needed, Help Needed