Author Topic: PCN for illegal left turn  (Read 408 times)

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ashirusnw

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Re: PCN for illegal left turn
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2023, 01:14:19 pm »
And finally (dunno if relevant):


cp8759

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Re: PCN for illegal left turn
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2023, 12:13:52 am »
None of the documents you have found are relevant, but well done for trying.

Firstly ownership of the land is irrelevant

The Side Roads Order reals with, well, side roads. We're looking for the principal order, which originally was The GLA Roads Designation Order 2000
as amended by The GLA Roads Designation (Amendment) Order 2000 and The Greater London Authority (Miscellaneous Amendments) Order 2001.

However these have almost certainly all been replaced many times over, the principal order for most boroughs is The GLA Roads (No.3) Designation Order 2008 which abolishes The GLA Roads (No.2) Designation Order 2007, but does not designate any roads within Barnet as far as I can see.

It follows that there must be a separate order covering Barnet, which is what we're now waiting for.

The fact that appeals have been lost at London Tribunals is irrelevant, I cannot imagine anyone has previously take this point, and the adjudicator can only allow an appeal based on the issues raised by the appellant. An adjudicator cannot go digging for issues to help one party or the other, or else they'd hardly be independent.
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I am not a lawyer.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

ashirusnw

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Re: PCN for illegal left turn
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2023, 01:44:22 am »
The 2008 order does include roads in Barnet on pages 5-8 but incorrectly under the heading of "GLA Roads in London Borough of Barking & Dagenham" which is given twice ! (probably drafted with wrong/duplicated heading because Barnet following Barking next in alphabetical order)
« Last Edit: October 20, 2023, 01:46:53 am by ashirusnw »

cp8759

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Re: PCN for illegal left turn
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2023, 11:39:05 pm »
The 2008 order does include roads in Barnet on pages 5-8 but incorrectly under the heading of "GLA Roads in London Borough of Barking & Dagenham" which is given twice ! (probably drafted with wrong/duplicated heading because Barnet following Barking next in alphabetical order)
So it does!

I think this is the relevant entry (my bold):

NORTH CIRCULAR ROAD (A406) OFF SLIP ROAD, the south side from a point 3 metres south-west of the extended north easternmost building line of Garden Court Hotel, Tilling Road to its roundabout junction with the unnamed M1 Motorway slip roads

So we don't have to worry about the end of red route sign being on the boundary or anything of that sort, because all of Tilling Road is a GLA road. This being the case, the borough cannot enforce without the prior written consent of Transport for London (which they won't have because they won't have bothered reading the legislation).

Here are a few cases won on this point:

William Samuel v London Borough of Lewisham (2220837736, 13 December 2022)
Commercial Plant Services Ltd v London Borough of Lambeth (2230127577, 15 March 2023)
Maurice Luftig v London Borough of Hackney (2230151491, 15 April 2023)
Robert Greens v London Borough of Lewisham (2230366024, 11 September 2023)

Let us know when you get the rejection and I'll sort out the appeal for you. The outcome cannot guaranteed, but what I can tell you is that this argument has never lost.
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I am not a lawyer.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

ashirusnw

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Re: PCN for illegal left turn
« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2023, 09:37:20 pm »
The 2008 order does include roads in Barnet on pages 5-8 but incorrectly under the heading of "GLA Roads in London Borough of Barking & Dagenham" which is given twice ! (probably drafted with wrong/duplicated heading because Barnet following Barking next in alphabetical order)
So it does!

I think this is the relevant entry (my bold):

NORTH CIRCULAR ROAD (A406) OFF SLIP ROAD, the south side from a point 3 metres south-west of the extended north easternmost building line of Garden Court Hotel, Tilling Road to its roundabout junction with the unnamed M1 Motorway slip roads

So we don't have to worry about the end of red route sign being on the boundary or anything of that sort, because all of Tilling Road is a GLA road. This being the case, the borough cannot enforce without the prior written consent of Transport for London (which they won't have because they won't have bothered reading the legislation).

Here are a few cases won on this point:

William Samuel v London Borough of Lewisham (2220837736, 13 December 2022)
Commercial Plant Services Ltd v London Borough of Lambeth (2230127577, 15 March 2023)
Maurice Luftig v London Borough of Hackney (2230151491, 15 April 2023)
Robert Greens v London Borough of Lewisham (2230366024, 11 September 2023)

Let us know when you get the rejection and I'll sort out the appeal for you. The outcome cannot guaranteed, but what I can tell you is that this argument has never lost.

Thank you so much, I'll keep you posted

cp8759

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Re: PCN for illegal left turn
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2024, 03:04:07 pm »
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I am not a lawyer.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Hippocrates

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Re: PCN for illegal left turn
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2024, 04:24:04 am »
Yet another incredulous situation.  Well done.
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know.

"Hippocrates"

DH

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Re: PCN for illegal left turn
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2024, 07:43:22 pm »
My wife was fined a few months ago for the left turn onto Tilling Road and we paid the fine. Is it too late to challenge this, as Barnet says you cannot appeal once you’ve paid…?

Incandescent

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Re: PCN for illegal left turn
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2024, 10:40:49 pm »
My wife was fined a few months ago for the left turn onto Tilling Road and we paid the fine. Is it too late to challenge this, as Barnet says you cannot appeal once you’ve paid…?
Too late.
Why didn't you appeal at the time ?

DH

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Re: PCN for illegal left turn
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2024, 09:04:37 am »
I didn't think we had grounds for appeal at the time, only asked the question when I saw this thread...

Incandescent

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Re: PCN for illegal left turn
« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2024, 09:11:12 am »
I didn't think we had grounds for appeal at the time, only asked the question when I saw this thread...
OK, so bookmark this site for the future.
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Hippocrates

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Re: PCN for illegal left turn
« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2024, 10:47:56 am »
I didn't think we had grounds for appeal at the time, only asked the question when I saw this thread...

Complain to the Council Leader.    cllr.b.rawlings@barnet.gov.uk
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know.

"Hippocrates"