Author Topic: PCN - Driving in a Bus Lane within the restricted period., Insufficient Upright Signs? Challenge Rejected  (Read 1674 times)

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Hi All!

This is a transitionary post (not sure whether to repost the entire first post), originally posted on Pepipoo: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=150122&st=0

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Received a PCN through the post for driving in part of a bus lane.

I managed to find the exact location of the footage: https://goo.gl/maps/B1Ryz89uHZTfgEEQ8

On this particular road the Bus Lane stretches a very lengthy part of the road, and having followed Google Maps I'm not surprised I missed the last 20 meter of it. Could anyone provide insight whether the markings/signage of the Bus Lane is sufficient? The footage/photos shows my vehicle at the specific point in the google maps link above, which does not show a Bus Lane, appreciate I maybe clutching a straws at best.

PCN and Challege Rejectiion details linked here:
https://1drv.ms/f/s!As_e_pwBk-z-yhbHlR11YEjPK2H7?e=ohXszm

I appealed as guided by cp8759 and I received the (expected) rejection letter today (letter dated 21st July), so that leaves me 3 days of the "discounted" price remaining.

Before the challenge kindly provided by cp8759, I was dwelling this point relating to pedestrian zig-zags:

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Bus priority: The way ahead - DOT
https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/...lve1073?page=28

Not all authorities seem to be aware that bus lane markings are not permitted within the controlled area of a pedestrian crossing. A bus lane must be terminated at the start of the ziz-zags and may pick up again at the end of the zig-zags on the far side of the crossing. If the road surface is coloured for the bus lane, this may be continued through the controlled area (marked with zig-zags). If a coloured surface has been used for a bus lane, this may be continued through the controlled area (although not through the crossing itself).

Trying to gauge the viable defences I have should it get to a Formal Representation/London Tribunal stages.

Many Thanks All.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2023, 12:43:40 am by cp8759 »

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Video:



For reference, here's the representation I drafted:

Dear London Borough of Havering,

I challenge liability for PCN HG60468721 on the basis that the council has materially departed from the requirements of the London Local Authorities Act 1996. Firstly the PCN states that an Enforcement Notice may be issued if there have been no representations received and no payment made before the period of 28 days starting with the date of service of the PCN, this is wrong for two reasons as follows:

The first point is that the statutory 28 day period commences with the date of the notice, not the date of service. The second point is that an Enforcement Notice may be served if payment is not received, there is no statutory right to make representations against a bus lane penalty charge notice and while one might make representations, that is irrelevant for the purpose of service of an Enforcement Notice: the authority may serve an Enforcement Notice at any time after the expiry of the statutory 28 day period, in particular the authority may serve an Enforcement Notice even if informal representations against a PCN have been made and are outstanding.

What the 1996 Act actually says is that a penalty charge notice must state that if the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the 28 day period, an enforcement notice may be served by the council. While the wording of the regulations does not need to be quoted verbatim, the substance of the provision must be communicated and the PCN is defective in this regard.

Further to this, the statutory grounds of appeal are misstated. In particular the following statutory grounds of appeal do not exist under the 1996 Act, but are quoted on the PCN:

1) The vehicle had been permitted to remain at rest in the place in question by a person who was in control of the vehicle without the consent of the owner. This might well appear relevant to a bus lane contravention where, for example, a camera captures a car parked in a bus lane. This might happen for instance where someone drives a car into a bus lane outside of its hours of operation, parks the car and then the bus lane comes into operation later in the day. However this statutory ground of appeal does not exist.
2) The hire company ground which exists under the Traffic Management Act 2004 and the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 is quoted on the PCN, but this ground does not exist under the London Local Authorities Act 1996.
3) The penalty exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of the case: again this ground exists under the Traffic Management Act 2004 and the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003, but it does not exist under the London Local Authorities Act 1996.

In this instance the PCN departs so fundamentally from the requirements of the 1996 Act that the conditions required under the Act for liability to be imposed do not arise, it follows that the penalty charge must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,



This is the informal rejection:





Looks like drivel, there's no consideration of the points made and they've even managed to quote the wrong Act of Parliament. For now just wait for the enforcement notice, in the meantime I'll try and confirm the make and model of the CCTV camera.

It would be helpful if you could confirm the exact route you took, and also if you could pop back and get some update photos of the signage.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2023, 01:22:07 am by cp8759 »
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Mr Beasley is legisationally-challenged.  Just put in the same again. The interesting point is that the PCN cites the 2003 Law, so he considers the reps. according to the same!  At least he is consistent there!  They simply cannot and will not accept any criticism of their PCNs.
I REGRET THAT, FOR THE PRESENT, I AM UNABLE TO TAKE ON ANY MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. THIS IS FOR BOTH PERSONAL AND LEGAL REASONS. PLEASE DO NOT PM ME UNLESS YOU HAVE POSTED YOUR THREAD ON THE FORUM AND I WILL ATTEMPT TO GIVE ADVICE.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"

Thanks cp8759, I went back earlier on and did a full walk. Think I may have gone overboard with the photos!

Route




1


2


3


4


5


6


7


8


9


10


11


12


13


14

For the record, IMO not a hope in hell of winning this on insufficient or misleading markings, I would not dwell on that aspect.
CP's draft does have merit, even if council do not agree.
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There is certainly a lot more signage than what is currently on GSV, but my thoughts were focussed on the section of pictures 11-12. Where the zig-zag pedestrian markings commence for the Traffic Light crossing (this interrupts the bus lane?) - I was wondering if they needed a new sign for the Bus Lane when it resumes after the zig-zags stop:

Quote
A bus lane must be terminated at the start of the ziz-zags and may pick up again at the end of the zig-zags on the far side of the crossing.
Quote

Also, look at picture 12, imagine if someone commenced driving from the shops and pulled into the left lane of that road, with the absence of a sign to indicate the bus lane enforcement after the zig-zags, they would immediately infringe on the bus lane.



Though, I appreciate this might be a clutch at straws and have a better chance with cp8759's technical/legal defense.

.....- I was wondering if they needed a new sign for the Bus Lane when it resumes after the zig-zags stop:....

Also, look at picture 12, imagine if someone commenced driving from the shops and pulled into the left lane of that road, with the absence of a sign to indicate the bus lane enforcement after the zig-zags, they would immediately infringe on the bus lane.........
No new sign needed though an adjudicator may take the view that someone entering from the shops was disadvantaged and allow an appeal.
But you didn't join the lane that way.
Obviously none of us know (and you don't need to tell us) how far along the road you had travelled or when you entered the bus lane but the video shows you in it as you left the zig zags.
An adjudicator is likely to assume that you had travelled far enough to be well aware that it was a bus lane
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The technical issues have much weight IMO.  Also, some of those pictures clearly show a motorbike so the Traffic Management Order should be interesting.
I REGRET THAT, FOR THE PRESENT, I AM UNABLE TO TAKE ON ANY MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. THIS IS FOR BOTH PERSONAL AND LEGAL REASONS. PLEASE DO NOT PM ME UNLESS YOU HAVE POSTED YOUR THREAD ON THE FORUM AND I WILL ATTEMPT TO GIVE ADVICE.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"
Like Like x 1 View List

I might also have another technical argument in the pipeline.

In the meantime please post the Enforcement Notice on here when it comes through.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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If this goes to the Tribunal, I wonder what colour the face of the parking manager will turn when s/he is asked which grounds of the LLA Act were considered!  There is also an anomaly re "At any time".
« Last Edit: August 04, 2023, 10:58:23 am by Hippocrates »
I REGRET THAT, FOR THE PRESENT, I AM UNABLE TO TAKE ON ANY MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. THIS IS FOR BOTH PERSONAL AND LEGAL REASONS. PLEASE DO NOT PM ME UNLESS YOU HAVE POSTED YOUR THREAD ON THE FORUM AND I WILL ATTEMPT TO GIVE ADVICE.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"

Hi All,

Enforcement Notice arrived 20 minutes ago:







Your images aren't loading, please host them on imgur.com and copy the BB codes on here.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

As cp says.  WE need to see the EN. Without seeing it, I would advise putting in exactly the same representations again which you now require them to consider as formal representations. Make absolutely no comment whatsoever on their initial rejection for obvious reasons.  If they produce the same again, the adjudicator will be on your side.
I REGRET THAT, FOR THE PRESENT, I AM UNABLE TO TAKE ON ANY MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. THIS IS FOR BOTH PERSONAL AND LEGAL REASONS. PLEASE DO NOT PM ME UNLESS YOU HAVE POSTED YOUR THREAD ON THE FORUM AND I WILL ATTEMPT TO GIVE ADVICE.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"

The images were loading fine when I posted the other day , this is definitely working right now:






More nonsense.  The law:

2)An enforcement notice must state—
(a)the amount of the penalty charge payable;
(b)the grounds on which the council believe that a penalty charge is payable with respect to the vehicle;
(c)that the penalty charge must be paid before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the enforcement notice is served;

Would you like me to deal with this one for you to get it cancelled now and/or at the Tribunal?

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/1996/9/schedule/1/enacted

This is total incompetence.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2023, 08:56:53 pm by Hippocrates »
I REGRET THAT, FOR THE PRESENT, I AM UNABLE TO TAKE ON ANY MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. THIS IS FOR BOTH PERSONAL AND LEGAL REASONS. PLEASE DO NOT PM ME UNLESS YOU HAVE POSTED YOUR THREAD ON THE FORUM AND I WILL ATTEMPT TO GIVE ADVICE.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"