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Hello, I cannot register with Imgur. Not on FB, X, tried Yahoo & email.  I cannot upload anything at all.

PCN CU67721791  16/07/24 17.21 Offence 21 Parked wholly or partly in suspended Bay or parking space.


July 16th Southend Green Rd Camden I unknowingly parked in an apparently 2 or 3 slot partially Suspended Bay, next to a wholly Suspended lengthy empty Bay with Yellow Signs at each end that we could all understand at a glance.
Street View shows my long parking bay starts around the steep corner up the hill and there were no repeater signs at the start nor closer to the intended Suspended parking slots. Driving down you would see a row of parked cars as usual on an unmarked Bay & I parked next to them to look for my dropped bank card.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/mRHedQVmfxthce2C8
https://maps.app.goo.gl/4DPLPkwLrjwBwEsC6
https://maps.app.goo.gl/VWzR1jzwCJoiUZTWA

I cannot upload photographs of the main sign between the two bays but the handwritten board was slewed onto its side written so faintly even the traffic warden struggled to read what it meant. First she said "opposite 65 Southend Green" but then agreed I was not opposite. Then she wasn't sure where the Suspended slots finished.

Unfortunately I have written in twice because Camden did not answer the specific questions about repeater signs nor the faintness and unclarity of their one sign which appeared to refer to the next Bay ahead. I am now at the Adjudicator stage for the full fine or worse. Can you help please with whether repeater signs should have been erected for clear viewing? Or whether the faintness and bad angle of the sign between the Bays is too unreadable?

The next day another driver parked there and I warned them but they felt they'd appeal as the signs were so confusing.

Thank you very much.
 

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Thank you.

I hope this Word file with all the correspondence does upload, for sizing restrictions I will have to send the three photos separately.

Cheers.

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Have you had the notice to owner?

I've pasted the correspondence below. It's hard to make sense of this - all I can tell at a quick glance is how you are supposed to gauge the suspension is not clear but it seems you didn't look at both signs on the pole?

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Submission Date/Time: 16/07/2024 18:46:38
PCN Reference: CU67721791
Submission Reference: 37101954
Your Notes:
Please see my photos as well as your own.
I have a parking permit blue badge because I need to park close to where I have to go. I saw the restriction notice in my photo and that it applied to the whole empty bay going forward in front of the one where I pulled in which already had many cars happily parked there.  I accordingly pulled into the nearest available space on the bay behind next to the other cars. At the time I was looking for my dropped bank card I'd possibly lost on the road behind my boot, when going to my Dr's appt shortly before. This had come to my attention in the post office immediately afterwards when I recalled dropping my paying in book onto the road & its contents had spilt; so it was a matter of hurrying back to the vicinity rather to see if it was on the bit of road that had been underneath the boot, back where I had been. It wasn't, I've had to have it stopped by the bank. The relevance here is that your notice is at one or both ends of the bay it mainly pertains to BUT there is nothing to suggest that any part of the bay next to it will be under stoppage before we choose where to pull up. Once the warden started to discuss something about numbers on *the other side of the road* not this side where we were all.parked, it just became thoroughly confusing. See my first photograph, it mentions a turn off road in faint writing but you would be entitled to suppose that this fixes the whole bay location ending rather roughly as I did. In any case, I was NOT parked opposite no 65 South End Green which bore a special mention.
I contend that this notice was insufficiently clear as to which bay or bays were cancelled as exemplified by the fact that everyone was steering clear of the entire 2nd bay going forwards but not at all the first one, that additionally the first bay had no signage at its initial end to prewarn us as standard  - & that we'd need a degree in signage to ascertain which bays and where exactly within them on a side of the road devoid of landmarks such as house numbers  we shouldn't park. It is a very unclear notice that I feel entrapped by and feel I parked in good faith as I understood the remit leaving an entire bay clear for whatever reasons you intended to suspend some parking. Please therefore would you cancel this notice as an honest misinterpretation?
Thank you
Uploaded Evidence:
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Penalty Charge Notice : CU67721791
Location : South End Road
Date : 16/07/2024 at 17:31
Vehicle : EA62HDN
Camden Parking Operations
www.camden.gov.uk/pcn
29 August 2024
Contravention code: 21
Parked wholly or partly in a suspended bay or space

Thank you for your correspondence received on 16/07/2024. I offer my apologies for the delay in responding to your appeal. We normally aim to respond within 10 working days, however this was not possible in this instance.
I understand that you are contesting the Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) because you believethat you were not parked in the suspended bay, but I have decided to enforce the Notice.The Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO) observed your vehicle parked in a bay suspended for road works.
I have referred to the CEO’s notes that record your vehicle was parked a reasonable distance from a time plate that had the suspension details stated on a large yellow sign. This bay was suspended from opposite 65 South End Road and Keats Grove from the 01/07/2024 -26/07/2024 for 24 hours a day.
You have stated that the notice was unclearly however, the suspension notice clearly stated that opposite number 65 South End Road and Kats Grove Junction was suspended. In thisinstance, the CEO has noted that your vehicle was parked opposite Keats Grove Junction,which formed a part of the suspended bay. Therefore, I am satisfied that your vehicle was parked in the suspended bay. I would like to add that a disabled blue badge does not grant you with a concession to park your vehicle in a suspended bay.
Bays are suspended from time to time and it is important to keep the area clear to allow the activity it is suspended for to take place. Any vehicles parked within suspended bays may cause an obstruction which can result in further suspensions. As the suspension information was clear and your vehicle was parked in a suspended space, I am enforcing this PCN.
Given the above I am satisfied a contravention occurred. I have reset the discount charge for
14 days from the date of this letter and will accept payment of £65.00 in settlement if received during that time. After this period the charge will revert to £130.00.
You can pay this charge online at camden.gov.uk/pay or you can contact our 24 hour automated payment line on 020 7974 6104. If you choose not to make payment we will send the registered keeper of the vehicle a Notice to Owner. This statutory document explains the grounds on which the registered keeper of the vehicle can make formal representations against the issuing of the PCN. I must make clear that the discount period for payment will have expired by the time a Notice to Owner is issued, and the charge will have reverted to the £130.00. Please also be advised that if the council does reject any formal representations that are made by the registered keeper of the vehicle the registered keeper will have the option of appealing to the Environment and Traffic Adjudicators who are an independent adjudication service.
Yours sincerely
A Ali
Process Officer
Parking Operations








Submission Date/Time: 29/08/2024 18:42:17
PCN Reference: CU67721791
Submission Reference: 37651203
Your Notes: 29 Aug 2024
Dear Ali, Thank you for reading my letter and apologising for the delay. I find however that you have not answered my key points in my clear submission backed up by my photos but ignored them by simply restating what you prefer. Please though would you re-examine my first photograph submitted on the day, the one showing your only sign that could remotely be connected to the lengthy Bay I was in, on a single dividing post. The post has permanent signs on either side of both bays to clearly indicate which numbered bay is which. There are the two there. Camden's actual notice states: "Whole Bay opposite numbers 45-85" not quoting Bay 14093 at all. This is a statement in the singular, appearing to refer to the following Bay which starts there, not to one that ends there & has no other notice at its beginning too to alert us. Since there is another notice at the end of Bay 13837 & no one parked in that bay at all, we would naturally read the notices as pertaining to that Bay, enclosed by both notices. This is the one opposite numbers 45-85 South End Green as you mention & just at the turning Keat's Grove. Where I was parked was not opposite no 65 Southend Green, nor numbers 45-65, which you do not acknowledge & it wasn't by the immediate junction to those houses. I do not know what "a reasonable distance from a time plate that had the suspension details" means, can you define "reasonable distance" at all since just behind me in my next photograph there are cars parked in the second Bay (one had been right next to me that had left before I quickly returned.) They had not been ticketed. How many cars comprise a reasonable distance? Why had that Bay not had notices at its other end of intended suspension as well? Why did one Bay but not the other? It is part of your consistent rules advising us that we know to look out for. As it was, we would enter a free area without any notices around the corner then see a line of parked cars perfectly OK & then see the yellow sign apparently indicating AFTER towards the next Bay especially as there was another notice visible at its far end and quite naturally think you wanted to suspend one Bay. You say yourself the notice was intended to mean "the suspended bay" which is my point, that one Bay, a pretty long tranche at that, would seem to be indicated. Not two. By the way, no roadworks took place up to Keats Grove, so any more than one Bay was not called for.
Where I say and still insist that the notice was very unclear indeed, see my photo, both in its extremely faded tiny writing that could not be read from any vehicle, dangling slewed to one side and in precisely what it meant even down to the unreadable bleached out map, you simply trample over that claiming that it is clear! Please produce a crisp photo of your notice at the time then, or we shall have to disagree so it will be needed for court.
So it all seems fairly arbitrary to me on this occasion and as I said could be argued to have been mismanaged to obfuscate thus entrap. It happened that the next day I was passing and saw a young lady parking exactly where I had been, so had a word. She had a companion she was helping out of the car to some appt & looked at your notice in surprise. She pointed out to me that only the one Bay, the next one, was referred to by its number so she would not move and would contest a fine. I cite this to show that another person was reasonably reading, even after studying, your remit the way that I had done & I will say so in court if I have to. There were plenty of parking spaces further behind so it is not the case that we want to ignore notices, you know - but it is a fact that some of us cannot walk further than we have to do on a hot day to our appts & that is why we may have a Blue Badge intending to reach as close as possible to our destination. Overall I think this was a poorly managed notice that failed to have had notices erected at either ends of both intended part suspended Bays. As such I would expect you now that I have reexplained to have another look at the exact notice that was up and then to kindly cancel this fine.
Thank you very much
Uploaded Evidence:
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20240716_173718.jpg







Penalty Charge Notice : CU67721791
Location : South End Road
Date : 16/07/2024 at 17:31
Vehicle : EA62HDN

Camden Parking Operations
www.camden.gov.uk/pcn
15 October 2024
Dear
Contravention code: 21
Parked wholly or partly in a suspended bay or space

Thank you for your letter received on 29/08/2024. Please accept my apologies for the delay in
responding. Where possible we do endeavour to respond to all correspondence within 10
working days, however we have been unable to do so on this occasion.
When your informal representation was rejected, our letter advised you that the discount period was reset for 14 days or will revert back to the full amount of £130.00 if payment was not made.
You have chosen not to make payment; we will send the registered keeper of the vehicle a
Notice to Owner. This statutory document explains the grounds on which the registered keeper of the vehicle can make formal representations against the issuing of the PCN. I must make clear that the discount period for payment has expired and Notice to Owner will be issued, and the charge has reverted to the full amount of £130.00.
Please also be advised that if the council does reject any formal representations that are made
by the registered keeper of the vehicle the registered keeper will have the option of appealing
to the Environment and Traffic Adjudicators who are an independent adjudication service.
You can pay this charge online at camden.gov.uk/pay or you can contact our 24 hour
automated payment line on 020 7974 6104.
For useful information on driving and parking in Camden visit amden.gov.uk/parking.
Yours sincerely
L Simons
Parking Operation

Please answer Stamfordman's question - "have you received the Notice to Owner ?"

OP, IMO your reps and posts to date have reflected your forum name!

But first: what is the date of issue of the NTO? (maybe you meant that it's dated 22 Oct in your last reply, but this was to the question 'when did you receive?').

If issued 22nd then you have until 20 Nov to submit reps. YES, 2 days time! And if you cannot make reps online then you must post today.

IMO, until we know the time you have left then detail can go on the back burner.

And the NTO is addressed to you by name?

I do intend to write in if I have a correct point as I'd thought at the time.
 
The specific question I meant to ask having not been able to discover the Traffic Management rules on this, is whether Repeater Signs within the same partially Suspended Bay are expected closer to the suspended slots on the open side when the layout is beyond the eyeline around a corner from the start of that Bay?
For that is the way I drove down.

I did read both signs on the shared post.
They were faint with a faded map that the warden also could not decipher & it seems I and then another woman made an honest mistake if we did, trying to read them. The shared sign did not seem to refer to both bays.

There wasn't any sign on the start post at the other end of the Bay I parked in but plenty of closer posts they might have put a Repeater Yellow warning on. Can be seen in the Street Views.

Whereas, the next wholly Suspended Bay from the shared main post DID have Yellow warning signs on Entry and Exit, so 2. My bay had only 1, if understood to refer to it at all.

I wanted to find out what is the recommendation on enclosure Repeater Signs around suspended slots at least?


Thank you,

FullSteam_Ahead

Thank you very much for your time and attention to this.

FullSteam_Ahead

There wasn't any sign on the start post at the other end of the Bay I parked in but plenty of closer posts they might have put a Repeater Yellow warning on. Can be seen in the Street Views.

Put the facts here pl.

There is a single bay which runs from (See Map just opposite the deadend top-run part of old South End Rd spur which then confusingly 'becomes' the popular roadway still called South End Road [there used to be road accidents on that blind corner before it was closed off] ) ** South End Rd. to opp Keats Grove. There are ** (4) traffic signs in this bay, *** (3) of which are stand-alone displaying traffic signs which apply to only this bay and 1 shared post which carries traffic signs for this bay and one which immediately adjoins.

On the day in question I parked approx. opp Keats Grove having passed **(3) of the other signs while finding a parking place. The post ahead carried two traffic signs, both of which were exposed. It also carried 2 yellow-backed notices.

....
Now we have the CEO's photos and what appear to be yours, is this correct? Yes. Yours(I think) clearly show the words 'whole bay opposite 45-65 South End Rd', so where does 'partially suspended' come from? The whole bay was suspended.
(I agree, I am looking at my photograph now. The top yellow plate says what you've written:
"South End Rd.
Whole bay opposite nos 45-65 location 1203Ti" I think)

The bottom yellow plate slewed round, is a very faded map with just one black marked line on it.
I cannot read any words.   

Pl just fill in the gaps above and let's take it forward. I'm not saying you don't have a case, it's just that your current approach won't succeed IMO.