Author Topic: PCN Code 34 Bus Lane, Whipps Cross Road E11 - Waltham Forest Council  (Read 92 times)

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CCH2024

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Good evening.

I received a PCN on 28/9/24 for driving in a bus lane on Whipps Cross Road E11 at 19:44 on 19/9/24. I have read the forums (links of posts shown further below) and viewed the videos posted, the alleged contravention is on the same section of the road approaching the busy Greenman roundabout. My night vision isn't great and was driving home after visiting my husband who had a procedure done on that same day. I was driving on the right lane when a car stopping in front, and I gave the left signal to get in the left lane as I saw the arrow indicating I could get onto the left lane ahead. I was very close to roundabout and would like to get in the left lane in time to take the first left after the roundabout. There was no bus behind me and I didn't get into the bus stop marking.  It was also not clear when the bus lane ends.

One thing to highlight though as it was mentioned in the earlier posts that there is a break in the thick white line which is used as one of the defence, but looking at the video, it didn't look like there is a break, perhaps the council has remediate the issue raised.  Do I still have a chance to win the appeal?

Recent posts in this forum regarding PCNs issued at the same spot:
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/pcn-code-34-bus-lane-whipps-cross-road-e11-waltham-forest-council/
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/waltham-forest-whipps-cross-road-e11-bus-lane-contravention/
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/whipps-cross-road-bus-lane-fine/

I am not able to attach any images as the file folder is full but they are very similar to the above posts.

I may get more PCNs from tomorrow as have been doing daily visits on 20/9, 21/9 and 22/9 at about the same time. Any help and advice is very much appreciated. Also would be great if you can share the outcome of any recent appeals made on above posts.

Thanks so much in advance

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Incandescent

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Re: PCN Code 34 Bus Lane, Whipps Cross Road E11 - Waltham Forest Council
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2024, 12:43:19 am »
Space is limited on this forum for posting photos etc so most people must use a hosting site then post a link to their entry. Please read this and update your thread as necessary.

There have been developments at this notorious cash machine site, so people involved will no doubt be on soon to advise.  You can, of course, look at Whipps Cross cases on the searchable Statutory Register maintained by London Tribunals. You need to type in the exact location shown on your PCN into the web page.

https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/about/registers-appeals

I did a quick search from 1st Jan 2023, and came up with 18 successful appeals. However, the council continue to enforce and make literally millions from this one site, and with no power to stop them, will just carry on and accept the rare cases against them, because most people on getting the PCN just cough-up.


Hippocrates

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Re: PCN Code 34 Bus Lane, Whipps Cross Road E11 - Waltham Forest Council
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2024, 09:49:14 am »
In the last 4 cases they did not turn up which is fatal to their case.
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ

CCH2024

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Re: PCN Code 34 Bus Lane, Whipps Cross Road E11 - Waltham Forest Council
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2024, 11:17:05 pm »
Hi Incandescent - Many thanks for your response and the Appeal Register link. Sorry, I tried searching using below values, but returned 0 cases. Do you know what I have done wrong here?

Enforcing Authority - London Borough Of Waltham Forest
PCN Location - Whipps Cross Road E11 (bus Lane)
From Date Of Decision - 01/01/2023
Decision - Appeal Allowed


CCH2024

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Re: PCN Code 34 Bus Lane, Whipps Cross Road E11 - Waltham Forest Council
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2024, 11:18:32 pm »
And Many thanks Hippocrates - it's reassuring to know they didn't attend the tribunal which would presumably mean, Appeal Allowed and PCN cancelled.  I am planning to use your drafting template below found in the forum with exception of point 2 below as it doesn't apply this time. Would revise point 5 to tailor to my circumstances.  Any thoughts?

-----------------------

I make this initial challenge as follows:

1. The video evidence provided does not clearly show any signs allegedly passed or violated. Therefore, it follows that the alleged contravention is not proved.

2. The presence of a break in the solid white line within the road markings is confusing and misleading to motorists. This can contribute to unintentional lane changes.

https://i.ibb.co/G52vZs1/IMG-9998.jpg

3. Notably, there is no clear end of bus lane sign visible. I refer to the Traffic Signs Manual Chapter Three@9.3.9.  The end of a with flow bus lane will usually be obvious through the termination of the diagram 1049A marking. If considered necessary due to observed driver behaviour, an upright sign to diagram 964 (S9 4 11, see Figure 9-5) may be sited as shown in Figure 9-1. The lane should normally be stopped short of the Stop line at traffic signal controlled junctions.  I refer to para. 9.3.13.  Where a nearside bus lane passes a junction with a major left turning flow into the side road, the line to diagram 1049A should be replaced with a broken line to diagram 1010 (see Figure 9-1). The broken line should commence 30 m in advance of the junction, and have the same width as the line to diagram 1049A. It should be accompanied by the arrow to diagram 1050 indicating a left turn (see Figure 9-6). At other junctions, the diagram 1049A marking should be terminated approximately 10 m before the junction (or at the junction if the minor road is one way towards the major road). In each case the bus lane recommences beyond the junction in combination with a marking to diagram 1010 (see Figure 9-1). It is important to ensure that the marking to diagram 1049A is terminated correctly, so that drivers turning left can move across to do so safely without needing to cross the continuous line.  Given the camera only focusses on the final 33 metres, it is arguable that  the observed behaviour will constitute  a large majority of motorists clipping the end.

Clearly, there used to be an End of Bus Lane sign. I also rely upon this High Court ruling:

R(Oxfordshire County Council) v The Bus Lane Adjudicator [2010]EWHC 894 (Admin) Mr Justice Beatson confirmed that, Para 65. The Defendant's submission that the fact that signs are prescribed or authorised does not mean they are sufficient for securing adequate information as to the effect of an order is made available to road users is clearly correct. If the signs do not in fact provide adequate information no offence is committed;


4. I put you to  strict proof that the camera used for monitoring and enforcement satisfies the criterion of admissibility of evidence at the Tribunal, as outlined in Para 7(2) of Schedule 1 of The London Local Authorities Act 1996 (as amended) and Part II.

5. Mitigating circumstances:  I was returning home quickly whilst my wife was in labour at a nearby hospital. etc etc.
 

Incandescent

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Re: PCN Code 34 Bus Lane, Whipps Cross Road E11 - Waltham Forest Council
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2024, 11:49:18 pm »
I would leave out para 5.

CCH2024

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Re: PCN Code 34 Bus Lane, Whipps Cross Road E11 - Waltham Forest Council
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2024, 11:40:45 pm »
Thank you.  I will try my luck. In the worst case of losing the appeal, do you know if I will still be given the remaining 14 days to settle £65, or would it be full penalty of £130?  If I proceed with the appeal, how do I seek help in getting someone to represent me in the Tribunal? Sorry for these questions, as my usual reaction would be just to pay up within 14 days but felt cheated to be caught out in this way.

Incandescent

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Re: PCN Code 34 Bus Lane, Whipps Cross Road E11 - Waltham Forest Council
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2024, 12:31:57 am »
It's important that you understand the difference between "representations", and "appeals"

You submit "representations" to the enforcing authority, (council or Transport for London). They have absolute discretion to re-offer the discount and usually do so, but it is not a legal right.

You submit an "appeal" to the adjudicators, (which are London Tribunals in London. The full PCN penalty is always in play, there is no discount option, but the adjudicator may, in declining an appeal, recommend to the council that they accept the discounted amount, but this is rare.

CCH2024

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Re: PCN Code 34 Bus Lane, Whipps Cross Road E11 - Waltham Forest Council
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2024, 12:42:50 am »
Thank you for your clarification. I have challenged the PCN, so awaiting a response. Fingers crossed.

Hippocrates

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Re: PCN Code 34 Bus Lane, Whipps Cross Road E11 - Waltham Forest Council
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2024, 07:11:51 am »
I will offer to help you with this one as they are most unlikely to attend any hearing at the Tribunal. So, they lose in that case.
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ

CCH2024

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Re: PCN Code 34 Bus Lane, Whipps Cross Road E11 - Waltham Forest Council
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2024, 09:38:42 am »
That's very kind Hippocrates, thank you very much for your offer.  I shall wait for a response and PM you directly as appropriate.


Hippocrates

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Re: PCN Code 34 Bus Lane, Whipps Cross Road E11 - Waltham Forest Council
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2024, 07:40:06 pm »
That's very kind Hippocrates, thank you very much for your offer.  I shall wait for a response and PM you directly as appropriate.
Just be prepared for the long game. It is very satisfying, actually. Too many people join The Mugged Club.
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ